Yes, there are plenty of reasons (from a crime risk reduction standpoint) not to get drunk. No one is disputing that.
Yes, some rape cases involve poor evidence quality or witnesses (due to drunkenness or other factors). But then prosecutors may decide not to bring such cases to trial.
But suppose it is brought to trial with good evidence, and the evidence shows beyond a reasonable doubt that the suspect raped (or committed an equivalent crime against) the drunk person (e.g. like how Brock Turner was caught in the act by third parties). Would you refuse to convict because the victim was drunk?
@doschicos I was only responding to what we talk about honestly when you’re not around imho. Some of the posts mentioned nonsense.
In your life, in your circle, they may feel that way. Perhaps that’s how they feel. Or that’s what they say to you. And it’s not like a pervasive and all the time thing.
I’ve talked in small groups of very enlightened men. In both therapy and 12 step environments. I have sponsored hundreds of men and we share openly and honestly.
I was only relating my experience and my observations. Please don’t dismiss it because it runs counter to your own beliefs. Or experiences. I only mentioned how I feel and what I’ve heard.
Ucbalumnus, obviously if there was evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, I would vote to convict. I would like to think any American would apply the rule of law to the case, that’s what lawyers expect and our legal system relies on. Often not the case that everything is so clear, though. Rarely are there witnesses to the acts. Both parties often have testimony that is both internally inconsistent and incomplete, and unreliable due to inebriation. In short, these cases are often a prosecutorial mess. And not just when women are victims. Drunk men are beaten, robbed etc. Such cases are rarely prosecuted due to the same problems with drunk’s testimony.
“Please don’t dismiss it because it runs counter to your own beliefs. Or experiences.”
Ditto. I’m expressing MY opinion and observations with men I know better than anyone else in my life and, yes, it is different than yours, obviously, but no less true.
“Or that’s what they say to you.”
If you are implying they are telling me what I want to hear and not being honest, they aren’t. In my circle, men and women are open and honest with each other, and best friends. They aren’t the “boy’s club”, “beers with the guys” “locker room chat” type of guys. We don’t segregate/do different activities by gender in my circles/family.
I’m not unsympathetic to what you express in your posts but I do find it a bit…hmmm… old fashioned or old school if I’m being honest. And I read and acknowledge the hurt in your posts. I just don’t feel it has to be that way where their are “sides” based on gender. It should be about good people and bad people not about men and women. Empowering women, evening the playing field, and implementing policies to reduce the rampant assaults on women doesn’t need to be viewed as disempowering men, IMO.
Some of the things you talk about - not showing emotion or weakness, of “quiet desperation”, etc. - speak to me about how toxic masculinity in our society does harm to and a job on men as well as women. It’s a load of crap for both men and women and in my view we’d all be healthier without a lot of those narrowly defined expectations about what a man is supposed to be.
Also in that terrible case at Stanford but was stopped and ultimately prosecuted because two men saw what was happening. Intervened and held him for police.
The outcome of it was terrible. But the point is one really bad guy was stopped by two not bad guys. There are good guys and bad guys. Let’s keep it so that separation is clear.
@doschicos point is valid. There are a lot of young women who need to protected from this first and foremost. More-so than any man by the millions. She’s also right that You shouldn’t have to worry if you have a clean heart. But for some of us that do try to live life in an honest and loving way, the fear of false accusations does come into your consciousness these days. Complicated questions.
@doschicos it would just be whole lot nicer if in one’s opinions they didn’t become, hmmm negative, personalized and inaccurate.
I’m many things but old fashioned isn’t one of them. lol.
And I have no idea about what truly lies in the hearts of others. My experience with a broad universe of men would be a little surprising. Would they say the same to their spouses or moms. Some yes and some no.
I fear you overrate the pleasure others feel in reading a post derailing a conversation about sexual assault to maunder on at tedious length about the terrible status of men.
“But for some of us that do try to live life in an honest and loving way, the fear of false accusations does come into your consciousness these days.”
If you feel that way I would argue you should be even MORE sympathetic to and focused on bringing about changes for women who are attacked/assaulted because statistics clearly show they don’t get justice most of the time, don’t get believed, and are judged for “what they wear” and other silly nonsense. The statistics show that even though there are false accusations against men (as I previously said there are false accusations in all classes of crime), those false accusations are outweighed many, many times over by legitimate cases that don’t get handled properly. And that’s why it is frustrating to me that threads like this always seem to be spun into focusing on the small subset of false accusations and “woe to males” comments rather than acknowledging and dealing with the vastly larger real incidents and the victim blaming and judgement women face as victims. It burns my britches, honestly, and makes me want to say, men, get over yourselves, step up, and champion for women! If the good guys would join forces and fight for women instead of obsessing on a very small number of false accusations, perhaps real change could happen.
I know too many people who have been victims to take this lightly. And surely there are others I know who are victims who are unwilling to talk about it because there is still stigma. It’s frankly a staggering issue. If posters here don’t personally know people affected by this issue, you are either extremely lucky or they might not feel comfortable telling you. And the impact on a victim is often life-changing, in very negative ways, and debilitating.
My use of the “hmmm…old-fashioned” is because I couldn’t think of a better way to say it but I do think if men are afraid to show emotion in 2019, that is a little old school, again for lack of a better word. I apologize if that strikes you as a personal attack, @privatebanker. I sincerely hope that men don’t feel they need to constantly keep their emotions in check and a “stiff upper lip”. That seems exhausting to me.
“Would they say the same to their spouses or moms. Some yes and some no.”
Yes, I know there are many types of men out there. And some aren’t honest with their wives or mothers. And some prefer hanging with other men and talking to them. But, that’s not my world. I’m only expressing another side/option.
Thanks @“Cardinal Fang” I’m sorry you feel that way. I was only trying to add some of my thoughts to what seemed to be an excellent sharing of perspectives.
The thread to me had moved other into other areas of the issue, including a whole section on what men say to each other when alone
And I only used a simple turn of phrase in context of a broader theme. Thanks pulling out and highlighting it for me. This isn’t a pleasant topic and obviously this isn’t a real conversation.
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In closing for me at least. I think this is all a very big and serious problem.
And I advocate for all that’s been discussed and measures to assure the safety of young women on campus.
I have one child. A daughter. And it’s my one and most primary concern. We have had many conversations about this issue specifically.
I also have wonderful college aged nephews. I worry about them too.
I don’t think so. No I worry about her more often.
Although I really wasn’t speaking to all of my fears or all of my thoughts on the issue. Many of the Posters including yourself have done a fine job highlighting the major issue.
I was looking to offer another perspective and I hadn’t thought about this in terms of ranking my fears, in any real way tbh.
In real life I talk to her and them about these issues. I only talk to my daughter protecting herself and situations to avoid. Not leaving glass unattended. Making sure the Uber is yours. Knowing she can call me for help and say no to any boy at anytime.
For the twins it’s about over drinking and doing the right thing. But there is talk with them about avoiding any situations that could lead to a problem or what can happen. Don’t be an idiot, be a Knight if you see anything. And actually only have sex with your girlfriend who wants to and it’s clear and consensual. Hook ups and party one nighters are trouble.
Hey maybe you’re right and I am old fashioned after all. Lol
Boys face bigger risks for suicide, for drug use, for alcoholism and depression than girls, I believe. Not for rape specifically unless they are Roman Catholic and an alter boy, living at home and getting no attention, although thats mostly cleaned up in most parts of the USA. Boys are much more likely to go to jail, to use a gun, to use drugs, to abuse alcohol and drugs, and boys NEED MORE CARE, by far, than most girls. Thats why its very sad when people say that somehow boys are on top of things, they are NOT. They are falling through the cracks, and even most LACs, are over 65% girls, boys do not even go to college at the same rate as girls anymore. Most of that is maturity, but also the huge push that US moms give their girls, while mostly ignoring their sons. I think the resentments are real for boys.
For instance, I read the Daily News from GaTech, a school that is 60% boys undergrad, and 70% boys in grad school. Not once in this year did I see
a photo of a white male in the daily newsletter. I feel sad and distressed as I see how much girls are focused on, given the best awards, the best research projects, and get the most job offers at Georgia Tech. I feel positively SICK for my son there, but maybe I am overreacting.
Let’s return to the subject at hand, @privatebanker. College women, as we see, have something like a 4% chance of being raped at college every year. That’s 1 in 25. Say that your daughter doesn’t drink, great, she can cut that probability in half, so 1 in 50. Or, say, 1 in 100 if she’s at one of the schools with a lower rate. Do you think there is a 1 in 100 chance every year that your nephew would be falsely accused of rape at college? There’s not. The rate of all formal accusations of rape is much less than that and most of them are true.
Females have about twice the rate of depression as males.
Women and girls attempt suicide more than men and boys, but men and boys succeed in their attempts more. (Please secure your guns if you have children or anyone with depression in your home.)
More men than women have alcoholism, but the gap is closing.
“They are falling through the cracks, and even most LACs, are over 65% girls, boys do not even go to college at the same rate as girls anymore.”
Males favor larger schools in general with big sports. Plus, males pursue career options that don’t require 4 year college degrees in much greater numbers than females - the military as well as trades like plumbing, electrician, HVAC, police and fireman. The trades pay very good salaries and there is little risk of having your job sent to another country. It’s a good career path.
I wouldn’t worry about your son too much. GA Tech is a great school and I’m sure he’ll have good prospects for employment when he graduates from there with an engineering degree, @Coloradomama. As far as females getting more focus in a newsletter, I’m sure the university wants to attract more women and is featuring women as a marketing tool. That doesn’t take anything away from your son who is there now.
If you want to create a thread about boys, suicide and the harms of drug abuse, do so. Those are real problems.
This thread, however, is a thread about sexual assault and sexual harassment, not about other problems that men and boys might face. Sexual assault and sexual harassment, by and large, are done BY men and boys TO women and girls. Not all men are assaulters or harassers, we know that, but virtually all women get assaulted or harassed. We don’t need to hear about how men get their feelings hurt when we talk about it.
The issue is there are now 2 standards and 2 “legal” systems. The criminal justice system is pretty tough – your innocent until proven guilty, you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt and a jury makes the decision. Thus, it difficult to get convictions especially in questionable or conflicting consent cases. We don’t like that, so we create a university “legal” system with drastically weaker requirements. The accused are getting caught up in this university system and being labeled as rapists as if they are criminally liable.