<p>Thank you so much familyof3boys! I clicked on your link and found out that there is a college fair in late August in our area. I can’t believe how many of these school will be there! My DH can find out about the schools and narrow down the list of schools to visit in the next 18months.</p>
<p>As I’ve said many times, no one – least of all me – is arguing that it doesn’t make sense to choose a CTCL-caliber school over a bigger name school (or even a state school) if the CTCL school sweetens the pot with lots of merit aid. Curmudgen’s daughter is a great example. More power to her! My issue is with a book that, again, in my personal opinion, appears to target potentially full pay parents who enter the college selection process worried or disappointed in their children’s prospects at the top colleges. And let’s face it. The reality is that many parents don’t look at the book (or these colleges) unless (1) they’re already resigned to the fact that their child isn’t going to make it to the big leagues or (2) they’d rather not pay for the big leagues. There aren’t a lot of parents with high achieving children and no financial constraints who are going to find these colleges attractive. </p>
<p>Having said that, would anyone care to address the irony that, while CTCLs are supposedly aimed at students who aren’t slaves to the US News rankings, it is these schools and not the top LACs who tout the rankings on their websites and other promotional materials? And why do you think these schools are offering merit aid to applicants with high test scores? I’ll give you a clue: US News. </p>
<p>CTLC schools are competing with every other school to rise closer to the top. They’re not exempt from nor put themselves above market pressures. All I’m saying, folks, is open your eyes a little.</p>
<p>I would guess they list the US News ranking, as well as any other recognition they have received, because these are data points that may be of interest to potential students and their families. </p>
<p>Isn’t the whole premise of the book that there are possibilities beyond the name brands for B or B+ students? Really, what is so hard to understand here?</p>
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<p>My D2 is not a prospect for “top” colleges, in the CC sense of the word. The spouse and I are not worried about this. We are not disappointed about this. We are not “resigned” about this. We sincerely hope that D2 is not worried or disappointed or resigned about this. We are full-pay. </p>
<p>Despite which, in MY personal opinion, we’re great targets for the book. Which just goes to show that what matters most is how each individual family uses all of the various resources available in coming up with an individual list of colleges to apply to. No matter how one feels about the CTCL “brand”, the CTCL philosophy for how to come up with The List is worth considering, even for a student who is aiming at tippy-tops. </p>
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<p>A pity for those high achiever/net worth parents, because they’re the ones with kids whose lists usually consist of tippy-tops + state U. We see those students here on CC every year: they don’t get in to the highly selective schools, and they go to the in-state option. Which can end up being a great option…but why not explore a bit more and see what else is on offer? A kid who is finding their bliss at Reed or St. Johns just might not care about turning down “big league” schools like Cal or UVA.</p>
<p>CTCL is a good start for parents looking for merit aid, but it’s only one resource…and that was never its mission statement. </p>
<p>Which reminds me of another thing that I like about the CTCL approach: it doesn’t wallow in pity about what’s not possible. Rather than asking “what’s the highest ranked college I can get into?”, it has students ask “what’s the best college environment for ME?” Rather than having students stress because their high school records are imperfect, it has them thinking about what future they want to carve out for themselves.</p>
<p>“A kid who is finding their bliss at Reed or St. Johns just might not care about turning down “big league” schools like Cal or UVA.”</p>
<p>Right. And it’s not just “big league,” but BIG. Comparing a small LAC to any large research university is apples to oranges. A kid who thrives at a small LAC might be lost at a big state school or private university.</p>
<p>To your point, rhumbob, I would say some CTCL schools cater to motivated B or B+ students, while others have, on average, significantly higher average GPAs for incoming students. I don’t think a B student would be likely to get into Reed or St. Olaf, for example.</p>
<p>Back to rankings, they are, to a large degree, a self-fulfilling prophecy. Malcolm Gladwell’s piece in the New Yorker last year describes this well.</p>
<p>[What</a> College Rankings Really Tell Us : The New Yorker](<a href=“The Trouble with College Rankings | The New Yorker”>The Trouble with College Rankings | The New Yorker)</p>
<p>One of the things he points out as a flaw of the USNWR methodology is that it lacks a component measuring OUTCOMES for students. That is why several of the other rankings systems might be better for people who care about ROI with regard to their investment in their kids’ education.</p>
<p>SlitheyTove-</p>
<p>I agree with much of what you have to say, including the suggestion that the high achieving/net worth families take advantage of the CTCL book to “explore a bit more and see what else is on offer.” I just happen to think that, if what else is on offer is a CTCL-caliber school at full pay, it’s a no-brainer. Not worth the money over State U. Back to the honda at a mercedes price argument, I guess . . .</p>
<p>novaparent, It may be a no brainer to you to pick “State U” over a CTCL school, but is clearly not so for everybody. I’m also not clear why you seem to care so much about this since you seem to have little or no experience with CTCL schools. As a fellow Virginian (with kids at UVa and VT), surely you realize that we are luckier than people in some other states with more limited state school options (and I believe someone else previously may have brought that up to you). We have UVa, William and Mary, Virginia Tech, JMU. Alot of these schools are popular for kids even outside of Virginia. We also have Mary Washington, which is a very nice school for kids interested in a smaller school. CTCL schools are not for everyone but are a great choice for lots of families. My SIL went to one of the CTCL schools years ago and had a wonderful experience. And she had very good SAT’s and very good grades at the time. Allegheny just happened to be the school for her. She made lifelong friends and went on to graduate school from there. A “state U” is not for everyone. It has worked quite well for my kids but I can understand it is not the right choice for everyone.</p>
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<p>Fair enough. So let’s have a look at some smaller public universities to see how they compare to CTCL schools according to the NSSE “engagement” measures.</p>
<p>I looked at 5 public universities with enrollments ranging from 3,609 to 15,459 (UNC-Asheville, Truman State, Evergreen State, Vermont, and Clemson.) The NSSE averages for these schools range from 51.02 (Vermont) to 55.72 (Evergreen State). So, to summarize my results so far:</p>
<p>NSSE “engagement” score averages
49.2 (5 big publics: average for Michigan, Wisconsin, UIUC, Minnesota, TOSU)
53.4 (5 smaller publics: average for UNC-Asheville, Truman State, Evergreen State, Vermont, and Clemson)
57.3 (3 selective LACs: average for Middlebury, Claremont McKenna, and Grinnell)
59 (7 CTCLs: average for Hendrix, Earlham, St. Olaf, Centre, Beloit, Kalamazoo, and Lawrence)</p>
<p>The highest average I’ve calculated for any school so far is for Centre College, a CTCL school (with an average of 62). According to Kiplinger’s, the total cost to attend Centre College would be about $2K less than UVa for an OOS student. That’s comparing full-pay students at both schools. A Centre student receiving average need-based aid would pay about $8K less than an OOS student attending UVa with average OOS need-based aid.</p>
<p>I’m not suggesting that a CTCL school like Centre College, at full sticker, generally makes a better choice than UVa for a Virginia resident. However, consider a good student who is shut out of the Ivies and the most selective LACs, and who does not like the in-state public options for some reason. For such a student, a school like Centre College may well be a better choice than even some of the most selective OOS public universities, based on a combination of some quality factors, “fit”, and cost. YMMV.</p>
<p>Contrary to novaparent’s figures, UVa is actually fairly small for a flagship university. There are only 14,000 + undergraduates (and only 13,000 some a few years ago when one of my kids was there). Virginia Tech is larger and has about 23 or 24,000 undergraduates. Both of course much larger than the CTCL schools. Most of the OOS applicants to UVa are extremely competitive applicants.</p>
<p>sevmom, thanks for your perspective. Another thing I would add is that not all state university systems are created equal. As you said, you are very lucky. In addition to being excellent academically, FOUR Virginia universities rank in the top 10 for the shortest time to graduate.</p>
<p>[Top</a> 25 State Universities for Graduating on Time - CBS News](<a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-37244373/top-25-state-universities-for-graduating-on-time/]Top”>http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-37244373/top-25-state-universities-for-graduating-on-time/)</p>
<p>At our state flagship, fewer than 50% of students graduate in four years. I know of many who take 5, 5.5 or 6. At $23K or so a year, that adds up, and it’s another way that one cannot make an “apples to apples” comparison against CTCL or other private colleges. </p>
<p>Also, the best state schools generally end up costing FAR more than small LACs for out of state students because they can’t discount their tuition (maybe for recruited athletes? I don’t really know/care how that works). My younger child already has her sights set on one of several out of state publics for specific programs she is interested in. But unless something changes radically in the next few years, they just won’t be a viable option for her.</p>
<p>Anyway, sorry for the digression. :)</p>
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<p>And to continue to whip this horse until he’s very, very dead, the factors reported in the NSSE, and at which the smaller publics, LACs in general, and CTCLs shine, are for the most part the very things that Pascarella and Terenzini report correlate with student achievement - and a recent post-P&T study, reported in the much-discussed book “Academically Adrift” found essentially the same results.</p>
<p>I chuckled over a bowl of Frosted Flakes this morning, as I thought about Centre College and the gift they’ve given my kid and our family. Centre’s a beautiful school. I mentioned earlier in this post that my senior in high school will be attending Centre next year. She was, in fact, accepted to numerous of the most selective LACs. We made it clear to her that she could go wherever she wanted, that we could make it work financially. Yet, she chose Centre for the opportunities the school offers her over the next four years. For those of you considering CTCLs and other LACs, you should google the Brown Fellows program at Centre.</p>
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<p>True for some families. Not necessarily true for all. </p>
<p>We live in California. The spouse and I–verily, my entire family!–are the products of the UC system. Even when I was an undergrad, being a UC or CSU student meant you had to be able to advocate for yourself. There’s no handholding, which can be a great thing. It can also be a disaster. For our family, it is by no means a no-brainer–if anything, the no-brainer argument might run in exactly the opposite direction for us. But that’s just our family. </p>
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<p>Different ways to interpret this, depending on your expectations for a car. Our family is of the keep it for 20 years/200k miles if not longer school of thought. When we buy a new car, we’re thinking about how reliability and operating cost are going to play out over that time. Both Honda and Mercedes are famous for reliability–in fact, a study by the (IIRC) San Diego Police Force once showed that the cheapest cars to buy for patrol use, amortized over some lengthy interval…were Mercedes sedans. 
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<p>But I digress. I can understand that other people might choose to pay for a new Mercedes over a new Honda. Maybe they’re exceptionally tall/short/thin/fat/whatever and they feel much more comfortable in the Mercedes. Maybe they’re a real estate agent, and they need to drive something flashier and more luxurious. Maybe they just really like cars, and like spending their cash on a certain type of driving experience though they are happy to stay at budget motels on vacation. Maybe they won it in a contest, or they’re amortizing it out over a 30 year lifetime. Whatever. If it’s in their budget and makes them happy, makes no difference to me. I’m not going to tell them that it’s not worth the money and they should just get a nice Honda. </p>
<p>BMWs, OTOH, are a total waste of money. The only people driving them are poseurs who’ve got more money than common sense. Sheesh, why don’t they just get a Prius?
:D</p>
<p>^^^^ Like :)</p>
<p>Tk-</p>
<p>An earlier poster purported to laugh at my comment that, when it comes to U-va, Reed isn’t quite there yet. My reaction to your attempt to extrapolate from
Asheville, Truman State, Evergreen State, Vermont, and Clemson to draw conclusions concerning U-va is similarly laughable. U-va is in a decidedly different league; similarities between it and them end at size and state support. U-va overlap institutions include William and Mary, Duke, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame - not a random sample of second tier state schools. I’m sorry, but paleeze.</p>
<p>Sevmom-</p>
<p>I don’t have to give you my life’s history with CTCL schools and have you bless me to speak before I’m qualified to express an opinion. Besides, I have a pretty strong hunch that your SIL would have gone to U-va had he gotten in, as would have your child at Tech.</p>
<p>Blind luck-</p>
<p>Would you happily pay full price for Centre and forego Bowdoin and the other top LACs that accepted her? Somehow, I dont think so. That Centre needed to provide you a free ride - a gift, as you put it - to get your daughter to attend proves my point. It doesn’t contradict it.</p>
<p>I’m interested in hearing about experiences with math and science at Ursinus.
My son’s accepted admisssions there, but will take a gap year in Israel next fall. We didnt’ know it was a CTCL school until we got there for the tour last summer. Believe it or not, our search priorities were Div III wrestling, followed by math/physics, followed by small school. He loved the visit. His other choices were Case Western and MSOE (and Mudd but he didn’t get in there). I do think he knows himself well enough that the small school appealed to him. (So so different from his sister who is finishing junior year at USC). And we live in the midwest, so none of this is about convenient geography.</p>
<p>“My reaction to [something] is similarly laughable.”</p>
<p>I have the same problem, people laughing at my reactions.</p>
<p>Schools have their strengths, even tiny LACs. A HS student wanting to study with the highest possible percentage of like-minded peers intent on curing cancer might seek admission to a school on this list:</p>
<p>Percent of PhDs per gradutate
Academic field: Bio and Health Sciences</p>
<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database</p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period.
2059 5.39% California Institute of Technology<br>
2599 4.77% Reed College<br>
3657 4.40% Swarthmore College<br>
8270 3.29% University of Chicago<br>
11348 3.08% Massachusetts Institute of Technology<br>
1015 3.05% University of California-San Francisco<br>
17855 3.04% Harvard University<br>
2565 3.00% Kalamazoo College<br>
1335 2.92% Harvey Mudd College
2410 2.82% Earlham College
9260 2.68% Johns Hopkins University<br>
11101 2.60% Princeton University<br>
2773 2.60% Haverford College<br>
4936 2.57% Mount Holyoke College<br>
12941 2.50% Yale University
6432 2.47% Rice University
2598 2.46% Lawrence University
4561 2.46% Carleton College<br>
16662 2.45% Stanford University
7067 2.43% Oberlin College
33736 2.37% Cornell University, All Campuses<br>
3229 2.26% Grinnell College<br>
2041 2.25% Hendrix College
2879 2.12% Bryn Mawr College<br>
3740 2.11% Bowdoin College
5840 2.11% Wellesley College<br>
4179 2.06% Amherst College
3578 2.04% Pomona College<br>
2308 2.04% Beloit College<br>
14669 2.02% Brown University<br>
11830 2.00% University of Rochester
2047 2.00% Long Island University Southampton Campus<br>
6751 1.97% Case Western Reserve University
15531 1.94% Duke University
2361 1.91% Hampshire College<br>
1535 1.89% Ripon College<br>
2966 1.85% SUNY College of Environmental Sci & Forestry<br>
2199 1.82% Knox College<br>
5082 1.81% Williams College<br>
3821 1.78% Occidental College<br>
3989 1.75% Allegheny College<br>
2911 1.75% Philadelphia College of Pharmacy and Science<br>
38488 1.75% University of California-Davis<br>
2462 1.75% Juniata College
6901 1.74% St Olaf College
30559 1.74% University of California-San Diego<br>
4113 1.70% Bates College<br>
3945 1.70% Macalester College<br>
56363 1.69% University of California-Berkeley<br>
12784 1.65% College of William and Mary
1363 1.61% New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology<br>
1971 1.57% Centre College<br>
1092 1.56% Rush University
7081 1.53% Wesleyan University
1277 1.49% Fisk University
1753 1.48% Wabash College<br>
2640 1.48% Hiram College<br>
13887 1.48% Washington University<br>
2081 1.44% University of Dallas<br>
21761 1.40% University of California-Santa Cruz
7162 1.40% Smith College
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<p>Oh gosh, look at all those second-tier CTCLs.</p>
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<p>Why do you think I’m intent on drawing conclusions concerning UVa in particular?
I believe it is you who are making UVa topical in a conversation about very different kinds of schools.</p>
<p>I’m exploring evidence that might help make a rational comparison between CTCL schools and some reasonable alternatives. State universities, for some students, might be reasonable alternatives. They generally have lower sticker prices (for full-pay, in-state students anyway) than private schools. Some public flagships roughly overlap some of the CTCLs (or similar LACs) in selectivity. Grinnell, if not Reed or Whitman, is approximately as selective as some respected state flagships such as UVa or UNC-CH. Reed and Whitman may be a little more so than Wisconsin or Texas. Etc.</p>
<p>What I’m finding is that, whether you compare big flagships like Wisconsin and Michigan, or smaller public schools like UNC-Asheville, the levels of “engagement” based on the NSSE scores (derived from very detailed surveys) don’t seem to rise to the levels of the CTCL schools. Now it may be the case that if data were available for a public school that is not only smaller but also more selective, such as UVa, we’d find levels of engagement that do approach, reach, or exceed those levels.</p>
<p>The other issue you’ve raised is cost. I think you’ve been making the argument that the CTCL schools become attractive only when they entice students with lots of merit money. What I’ve pointed out is that, in some scenarios involving no merit money, the CTCL schools actually are cost-competitive (as well as, apparently, quality-competitive) with some of the more selective OOS public schools.</p>
<p>We could look at other comparisons, too. Forbes ranks Centre College and Whitman a little higher than UVa (and Bowdoin, and Middlebury, and W&M). Stateuniversity.com (another, more data-driven ranking that doesn’t separate LACs from universities) ranks UNC-CH and UVa a little higher than Reed, Beloit, or Centre (but all of the latter 3 higher than Texas or Berkeley). I mean, they’re all close enough from the perspective of these rankings that it might be perfectly rational to choose one of the CTCLs based on size, “fit”, or out-of-pocket costs, without any merit money in the picture.</p>
<p>novaparent, that’s not true: Centre didn’t necessarily have to offer a full scholarship to my daughter in order for her to make her decision to attend. Prior to receiving the full tuition plus scholarship, she was offered a Faculty Sholarship. Her decision then was either Centre at $20K a year or Bowdoin at $32K per year. It would have been a difficult decision for her. I think she probably would have chosen Centre.
And sure, her decision to attend Centre ultimately had something to do with the cost. But, it had more to do with other factors: the remarkable opportunities offered to her as a Brown Fellow and her sense that the people shed met at Centre were authentic.
Also, Im not trying to pile on, but UVA at $20K a year or Centre at $20K/year would be an easy call for us: Centre.</p>