<p>novaparent – Ah. You didn’t leave after all.</p>
<p>Quesion: You keep referring to Top 20, second-tier, etc. What’s your criteria for those judgments?</p>
<p>ETA – I ask, because earlier you said this:</p>
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<p>If not USNWR, then who is deciding for you which schools are "largely on top?</p>
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<p>Wrong, as I’ve often cited, e.g., <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/14220195-post36.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/14220195-post36.html</a></p>
<p>Oh for the love of god. Here we go again…</p>
<p>What’s really ironic is that novaparent is doing more to market the CTCL schools than any of the schools could possibly do themselves during a time of year in which most of them are not sending a lot of mailings. </p>
<p>For every contentious post, not only are false statements refuted with facts (as well as first-hand perspectives on the schools and some of their students), but the thread stays on the top of the “latest posts” list. We’re up to almost 13,000 page views, last time I checked.</p>
<p>amtc-</p>
<p>No one’s “telling you how to spend your money.” If you’d read my posts without a defensive eye, you’d see my many references to this being my personal opinion and that everyone may spend his or her money as they wish. And, yes, you are being defensive. Otherwise you would not have felt compelled to share that your child got into Yale. </p>
<p>LasMa-</p>
<p>Again, as I said before, “WASP” were considered by those in the know to be at the top of the LAC list well before US News came along and announced it to the world. The facts are the facts: the schools at the top of the US News list have more money, more accomplished students and faculty, better reputations, and better track records in graduate school placement. And this would be true whether US News existed or not. </p>
<p>And as for all the potshots being directed at me by so many outraged posters: if you don’t want to hear from me, then please stop directing your comments at me. Sally, please take note!</p>
<p>I could not care less about what school is better than another on some elitist list. That is not what this thread is about. If that is what you want to make of it you clearly do not see the point of this thread. You are hijacking it to your own agenda. Nobody cares if your kids go to UVA and you think that’s better. We want to hear from people who have experiences at the schools on the list. That’s it. Go make your own thread called “what is so wrong about XXX schools” if that’s what you want.</p>
<p>The caliber of faculty is very important to me, and I did a lot of research into it when my son was putting together his college list. </p>
<p>Just glancing through the faculty at Hendrix, their PhDs come from places like:</p>
<p>Yale
Chicago
Cornell
UNC
UC-Berkeley
Northwestern
Duke
UCLA
Oxford
Carnegie Mellon
Michigan
Georgetown
Vanderbilt
Wesleyan
Emory
UT-Austin
UVA</p>
<p>…all for a school of fewer than 1500 students. I am sure faculty at many of the other CTCL schools have similar credentials. These are people who WANT to teach undergraduates in small, interactive settings–not turn over much of the instruction to TAs in giant lecture halls. My son would be lost in a large school, whereas my younger child would probably prefer the anonymity of huge classes. The point (as others have made more eloquently) is that no one school is right for everyone. It’s all about fit.</p>
<p>Nova: "Northern Virginia high school students routinely enroll in LACs ranked much higher than any CTCL school – not Amherst or Swarthmore, perhaps, but certainly schools along the lines of Oberlin, Grinnell, Smith, Colgate, Colby, etc. – after being denied admission to U-Va. And UW is unquestionably a notch below both U-Va and these schools. In short, you might want to do your research before taking your potshots. "</p>
<p>We don’t want to talk about stupid ranking, nova!!</p>
<p>We want to talk about innovative programs! Don’t you get it!</p>
<p>Is anyone else on cc interested in talking about innovation, or is it just me? a New College grad :)</p>
<p>redpoint, I see your point but I do believe status matters at the graduate level–not just in PhD programs but also for MBAs, law school, med school, and so on. I won’t hijack this thread with my reasons but I believe my opinion is shared by many.</p>
<p>And I love New College, but I couldn’t get my son to apply there. His grandparents on both sides live in Florida (so unusual, I know!), I grew up there and he just wanted nothing to do with the state. In any case, New College is incredibly innovative and impressive in many ways.</p>
<p>I have a nice anecdote to share about a CTCL couple I met a few weeks ago. As it happens, I met them at a pomp-y and circumstance-y event at yet another CTCL school. The wife, a Kalamazoo College grad, is an associate professor of psychology at a state flagship university. Her husband, an Antioch College grad, works at the same university in some kind of academic capacity, possibly as a lecturer. When I was quizzing him about his work in an esoteric field, his wife piped in: “He won a MacArthur genius award … He doesn’t like to tell people about it but I do.” It was very cute. </p>
<p>Note: This is an anecdote. Results not presented as typical of anything.</p>
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<p>In some circumstances, yes …</p>
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<p>Pascarella and Terenzini (full cite upthread), p.469</p>
<p>H got his phd after New College at Johns Hopkins. Other people we know went to Brown, Yale, Emory, for their PhDs. Grad school was free, plus teaching stipend. New College was (at least in-state) very cheap (they gave me an OOS tuition waiver, don’t know if they still do this). No debt. Plenty of respect of NC grads by grad schools.</p>
<p>(it was nice going to class barefoot and taking a dip in the outdoor pool between classes, also :)</p>
<p>redpoint, that does not surprise me at all. One of the advantages students at a number of CTCLs have when they graduate is both a transcript AND a personal narrative on their achievement in each class written by their professor. If I recall correctly Hampshire does not assign letter grades at all–by the time students graduate, they have a very robust and detailed record of their coursework. </p>
<p>If I were a faculty member reviewing graduate-school applications I would be very interested in seeing such a substantial evaluation of a student–along with results of the actual research many of them are able to present–instead of just a transcript and an essay or two.</p>
<p>New College doesn’t give grades either. The grad schools dont seem to mind. Because of this it has the honor of being #2 on Glen Beck’s worst schools list. (Mills College is #1! ?) He thinks the idea of narrative evaluations is outrageous. </p>
<p>I’ll add another :)</p>
<p>I find this one of the most fascinating threads on CC in a long time. I am riveted!! I could do without all the drama, but a lot of substantial points have been made…NOT by Nova though…yawn. One of the things that is helpful is finding out about all of these less known schools and how absolutely amazing they are. Now that the top 25 schools are being saturated with applicants, everyone is going to have to start looking at a wider range of schools.</p>
<p>Our family is not inclined to follow the masses and has always chosen different paths in life that a lot of the “follow the masses” people thought was risky. For us, it has always worked out better than we expected. My DS 12 is taking a gap year and hiking 2600 miles to complete the Pacific Crest Trail SOLO. My friends think we are crazy for letting him go and for letting him skip a year of schooling. I know better. What he will gain from this experience will be leaps and bounds above what he would learn in college for that year. Sometimes I think that people just need to stop and look around a bit… add some more flavor to your life… do something DIFFERENT.</p>
<p>I for one, LOVE reading about a new undiscovered hidden gem of a school… right now I am fascinated with Lawrence, St O, and Hendrix… can’t wait to move on to Kalamazoo. I have one more kid coming down the pike… I am definitely going to steer him in the direction of one of these type of schools. He is a brilliant creative kid who has not yet found is stride. is really only turned on to learning if the teaching and the subject matter are aligned. His passion and talents lie in physics, and he needs a nurturing and inspiring teachers to awaken him. I don’t think he wold find that at a big research university. 4 years at one of these schools and I’m sure there would be no end to what he can accomplish.</p>
<p>i think it’s great that these smaller LAC’s provide a quality education for a select number of students; however, for the vast majority of people, in-state colleges would not only save a ton of money but also provide an equal opportunity for learning. </p>
<p>especially with a weak economy and slow recovery, i would think twice about paying 50K/yr at a small, relatively unknown school for a ‘life-changing’ degree that will be virtually worthless out in the real world. you would basically be forced to pursue a graduate degree at a ‘higher status’ institution whether it’s a ‘top 50’ university or your local flagship factory school for better employment chances, especially in the world of academia.</p>
<p>i don’t doubt that most schools do want to educate our children, but the other hidden agenda that they don’t advertise is that they’re also out to suck every last penny from our banks/ retirements/ investments. so yes, in general, higher education has become a ‘gimmick.’ the media and these institutions have brainwashed us into believing that they are the ticket and only path to an education and hence a ‘changed life’ for our children and grandchildren, justifying the exorbitant price tags.</p>
<p>we can educate ourselves- how bout going to the local library and reading all the great books/ classics for FREE. want interaction? get a few friends to do the same thing or join a book club. college is but one way or resource to receive an education.</p>
<p>PizzaFatFace (nice name, btw:)), I hate to tell you to read back through this entire thread…but most of your points have been debated already, with plenty of data to refute them.</p>
<p>I do agree about libraries, book clubs, and so on, though…and would also add that not everyone should be going to college in the first place. There are all kinds of intelligence, and plenty of people with tremendous real-world knowledge and life “wisdom” who either didn’t go or dropped out.</p>
<p>5boys…congrats to your adventurous son! The gap year is a great choice for a lot of kids.</p>
<p>My son’s best friend will be at St. Olaf in the fall, along with a couple of other kids from their high school. It is a fantastic school. Feel free to PM me if you would like more perspective or possible contacts.</p>
<p>My kids both attend LACs (Grinnell and soon to be Furman for my second child) and both turned down UNC-Chapel Hill to do so. For quiet, self-effacing kids, big universities often don’t work. There are so many outgoing “leader” types that overshadow quiet kids and get to the opportunities first. I have watched my older child emerge as a confident, well-spoken individual as a result of Grinnell. My younger child started at Berry College and transferred to Furman. He went from being an unenthusiastic student to one who has real intellectual pursuits. For example, his 300 level Spanish teacher had him meet and discuss literature individually with her-it really brought him out. </p>
<p>Small LACs have the opportunity to assign more detailed written projects, expect in class participation, expect students to present projects, provide students with individual lab stations the student works at independently from freshman year on (instead of groups of four like big state U’s).</p>
<p>I will add that if my kids had not gotten the substantial scholarships that made the COA at the LACs close to the cost of UNC-Chapel Hill, they would have gone to UNC and probably done well but most likely would have graduated as relative unknowns.</p>
<p>H and I both graduated from state U’s (NCSU and UNC). Going to graduate school and suddenly being expected to speak up was difficult at first.</p>
<p>Disclaimer: I haven’t read Pope’s book, only about Pope’s book - but based on what I have read, it appears that the colleges on his list practice all or some of the things that research shows make a difference in student academic outcomes:</p>
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<p>– Pascarella and Terenzini, op. cit. upthread, 641-2, emphasis in original</p>