Did One of the COLLEGES THAT CHANGE LIVES Change YOUR Life (or Your Child's)?

College Search & Selection
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<p>Thanks Sally:-)) I would love to get some info in St O… one of the moms on the 2012 parent threads daughter is going there and she is over the moon about it. I will pm you. For my DS14… he wants to major in physics and theater, but also be exposed to music, as he is in his HS’ honor choir and loves to sing. St O with their outstanding music and science facilities looks perfect… as does Lawrence. We are from So Cal… so all of these schools are somewhat unknown to us… everyone here thinks we are crazy to want to send out kids so far away, as the CA publics are so reputable… but don’t get me started on the state of affairs of our state school system… it is going down fast and hard… there was an article in the NYT today… really frightening.</p>

<p>I get the whole thing on just picking up a book and educating yourself… our kids have been reading everything and anything since they were 3… and one of the reasons I think my DS12 was bored in HS… whatever he was interested in… and it was always something new, he just found a book and read as much as he could about it. He is a humble kid, but he knows literally an insane amount of info… it always astonishes me. So yes, college isn’t the only way to get educated, but I think it is one of those passages in life that I wouldn’t want my kids to miss out on… but I would not have my kid go in debt to do it. Luckily my Ds got enough merit and scholarships for his UG at a private LAC to be almost free. I would not pay $55,000 a year for that luxury.</p>

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<p>Do you just cut and paste the same post over and over, ad?</p>

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<p>nova - Don’t understand what you found that was defensive in my statement concerning my daughter turning down Yale; rather it was a demonstration of choosing a college that is right for the student and not for the status.</p>

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<p>“don’t get me started on the state of affairs of our state school system… it is going down fast and hard.”</p>

<p>Ours too, 5boys. We have an education-hating governor and state legislators who have been trying to defund/privatize/decimate the UW system for years. Hopefully some of them will soon be recalled (especially Governor Walker) but a lot of damage has been done already.</p>

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<p>Just a couple of quick points. </p>

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<li><p>Sally, you misread my post. I didn’t say anything about the quality of the FACULTY at CTLC schools based on where they got their PhDs from. I said that you can’t necessarily say that an Amherst is no better academically than, say, a Hendrix because of some list showing that both schools have a similar number of GRADUATES who go on to get a Ph.D --because the lists don’t show where the graduates went to school to get their Ph.Ds. I also think it’s ironic that you purport not to care about rankings and “big name” schools, yet that’s exactly what you did when evaluating how good the faculty at Hendrix is!</p></li>
<li><p>Annasdad, the quote from the study that you keep citing over and over again doesn’t prove your point. If anything, it advises the opposite. If it doesn’t matter AT ALL where a student goes to college, then why spend any extra money to go to a CTCL school? Why shouldn’t every student spend two years at the least expensive community college, then enroll at State U – regardless of its reputation – and finish their degree? </p></li>
<li><p>Hornet, congratulations on your children’s thriving at Grinnell and Furman. I will note, however, that (a) neither is a CTCL school (in fact, previous posters have derided Grinnell as having lost its way), and (b) you really have no way of knowing how your kids would have done elsewhere. Many, many, shy and reserved kids come alive once they go to college, whether the college is big or small. Some of this just comes with maturity. Some of the most shy and reserved kids that I know came completely out of their shell at 30,000 student Virginia Tech.</p></li>
<li><p>Finally, amtc, your daughter turning down one highly prestigious school for another is not relevant to this discussion. Had she turned down Yale for a CTCL school or an equivalent, you may have had a point. The difference between Yale and Northwestern is not so large that the choice to go to Yale is always a given. Remember, even Harvard doesn’t have a 100 percent yield.</p></li>
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<p>I have never said that “it doesn’t matter AT ALL where a student goes to college.” What I’ve said (supported by solid research) is that “the dimensions along which American colleges are typically categorized, ranked, and studied, such as type of control, size, and selectivity” do not correlate at all with academic quality.</p>

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<p>That is, in fact, an excellent strategy, and for a motivated student who (in the words of one author) “is willing to suck the juice out of” the opportunities presented, will lead to an excellent education. And it’s exactly the path I would recommend before I would recommend incurring significant debt to go to, or to send a child to, any private school, whether CTCL or top-whatever-ranked or otherwise.</p>

<p>For parents who can afford it, there is research to support the view that the kinds of opportunities that Pope says the CTCL schools typically offer do in fact make a difference in the quality of the education received and in the prospects for a rich and satisfying life.</p>

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<p>Annasdad, it appears we’ve come full circle. From the beginning I’ve made clear that, for parents who can afford it, this is all nobody’s business. But for parents and students to borrow extra money to attend a CTLC school? The evidence that it’s worth it just isn’t there – despite the nice and soothing words said about each CTCL school in the CTCL book. Which brings me back to the purpose of the book . . . </p>

<p>And, before I forget, LasMa keeps asking, despite my continued offering of a clear explanation, “If not USNWR, then who is deciding for you which schools are ‘largely on top?’” So let’s try this one on for size – how about THIS VERY WEBSITE! I’d say it’s done a pretty good job identifying “top universities” and “top liberal arts colleges.”</p>

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<p>That is decidedly NOT what you said in your first post:</p>

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<p>I would disagree - the conventional wisdom on this website is that if USNWR puts it in the top-whatever category, it’s something special - in spite of clear evidence that the ranking criteria that USNWR uses have no correlation with much of anything except prestige.</p>

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<p>Novaparent,</p>

<p>The original question that started this thread was aimed at people who have personal experience with the so-called “colleges that change lives.” Of course, no one can stop you from posting here, provided you stay within the terms of service of the site, but good form would seem to dictate that a person who doesn’t have personal experience with these schools should simply stay out of the discussion. It seems apparent to me that your principal goal is irritating people. Good job on that score.</p>

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<p>novaparent, really—what is your point? Again and again your assertions have been refuted, yet you persist in your flawed logic. Several posts ago you made the specious claim that the quality of the faculty at CTCL and comparable schools is somehow not as “good” as that in your exalted “top-tier” schools. So I simply used your own criteria against you to prove otherwise. </p>

<p>You also have nothing to back up your fiction that the caliber of PhD programs that Amherst or Grinnell graduates get into is higher than those of the lesser-known schools. Why, then, do I know people in my own circle of acquaintances who got their advanced degrees at UW (which you despise) after receiving their undergrad degrees from places like Brown, Harvard, Princeton, Penn, Chicago, Haverford and Williams? (And I am not talking about any of UW’s top-ranked department…but rather those you would consider “second-tier,” like the law school, business school, and certain PhD programs.)</p>

<p>As an aside, you completely underestimate the importance of networks in higher education generally. A St. Olaf professor who received her PhD in chemistry from Yale, for example, will know what it takes to prepare her St. Olaf undergrads for the Yale PhD program. She will likely still have contact with her advisor and dissertation committee, thus offering her St. Olaf students potential contacts before they even graduate. I am sure the same pattern repeats itself over and over across different fields at each of these schools.</p>

<p>As the saying goes, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. Maybe it’s time to move on to a subject you can defend with more than just your entrenched biases.</p>

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<p>abswetmarie-</p>

<p>There appear to be many posters on this thread whose personal experience with CTCL schools, like mine, is limited to having heard about or read the book or having looked at some of the colleges mentioned. Does “good form” dictate that they all refrain from posting as well, or is your view limited only to posters with whom you disagree? </p>

<p>I will continue to respond to any comments directed towards me, which I think is entirely appropriate. </p>

<p>annasdad-</p>

<p>I did say that. But, again, I’m talking about who I think the book’s target audience is and not the majority of students actually enrolled at CTCL schools. As I see the book, it’s marketing to parents who can afford a mercedes but can’t drive one to consider buying a honda instead – but at a mercedes price. If those parents want to pay the price, fine, it’s their business. And while I’m not a big fan of his movies generally, your comment about how this site categorizies schools in a way that merely mimmicks US News reminds me of an old Adam Sandler movie, “the Wedding Singer.” He says to his former girlfriend something along the lines of “Some people want a loving spouse, a good job, and great kids.” And the girl says “no, that’s not what SOME people want, it’s what ALL people want.” Same thing with the top colleges. You don’t need US News or this website to tell you the obvious.</p>

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<p>No, its target audience is parents and student who are blinded by the hype around so-called “top” college and who therefore think that there is something special about those places, beyond the prestige. Its real takeaway isn’t, “These are the best colleges for you or your kid” - it’s “Here’s what’s important in considering colleges, and here are some places that understand that.”</p>

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<p>Sally, respectfully, I’m confused. You said I “have nothing to back up [the] fiction that the caliber of PhD programs that Amherst or Grinnell graduates get into is higher than those of the lesser-known schools. Why, then, do I know people in my own circle of acquaintances who got their advanced degrees at UW (which you despise) after receiving their undergrad degrees from places like Brown, Harvard, Princeton, Penn, Chicago, Haverford and Williams?” </p>

<p>Aren’t Brown, Harvard, Princeton, Penn, Chicago, Haverford and Williams well known schools? My point was that the lists that have been cited don’t show where the students at the LESSER known schools went on to PhDs. In other words, shouldn’t you be telling me about all the PhD’s from UW with whom you are acquainted who went to Knox, Beloit, or Kalamazoo?</p>

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<p>I’ll now close the circle on annasdad with the following observation: if that’s what the book is all about, then in my view the message could better be conveyed in the form of a general narrative on, as you put it, “here’s what’s important in considering colleges,” along with illustrative anecdotes from various colleges – but without individual chapters on particular colleges. It is the inclusion of the individual chapters that, in my view, exposes the book as a marketing gimmick. You, of course, will never agree to this, so for you and I to continue the debate is probably pointless (and I’m sure other readers are thinking “hooray”!).</p>

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<p>novaparent, again you miss the point. Others here have amply demonstrated that students from CTCL and other non-“elite” schools get into highly regarded graduate programs. This is a fact. annasdad, in particular, has explained clearly how the type of thinking fostered at CTCL and similar schools offers exactly the preparation grad schools are usually looking for. It should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with higher education how this works.</p>

<p>You tried to suggest that an Amherst or Pomona or Swarthmore necessarily opens more doors to top graduate programs. I then used first-hand evidence to prove otherwise. Why would any graduate of one of the LACs you deem worthy ever have to “settle for” a less-than-superior graduate program? Does that mean the top LACs aren’t as good as you think they are? You can’t have it both ways.</p>

<p>It’s interesting–for someone who claims to disapprove of so-called “marketing gimmicks,” you are the biggest victim of them here. Your steadfast belief in the USNWR top 20 (or whatever your cutoff is) is entrenched. (That and the belief that all Virginia schools are “better” than comparable schools in other states, or any school that has been included in CTCL.) Look, we all know the college decision is a personal one for each family. No one is criticizing you for your choices or telling you how to spend your money. It would be nice if you would show the same respect to people who have put the time and research into choosing the right college for their children. And please spare us the faux concern for how people are spending their money. My son’s choice is going to cost SIGNIFICANTLY less than our state flagship and the adjacent-state school with reciprocal tuition–in fact three other colleges (two other CTCL + one higher-ranked LAC you’d probably approve of) came in under the state schools with merit aid and grants. As I have said before, if you really care about people “wasting their money” on college, go cruise the boards of the schools that give almost no merit aid or for which the expense is neither borne out by rankings or later ROI.</p>

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<p>Sally-</p>

<p>In a word: huh?</p>

<p>How does pointing out that you know PhDs at UW who went to Brown, Harvard, Princeton, Penn etc. refute my hypothesis that students from Amherst, Pomona or Swarthmore have a better shot at top graduate programs than Knox, Hiram, or College of Wooster? I’m not trying to be difficult here. I just don’t get the argument. </p>

<p>I’ve also never suggested that all Virginia schools are “better” than all CTCL schools or all other state schools. Yes, I’d say that U-Va and William and Mary probably are “better” than virtually all CTLC schools and all other state schools, at least in terms of the academic qualifications of their undergraduates. But I wouldn’t say that ALL Virginia state schools are “better” than CTLC schools – just that they’re generally at least as good and likely cheaper for students with less than outstanding academic records. A middle class family with a student good enough to get into JMU, but not U-Va, would likely pay less to go to JMU than to a CTCL school, even after merit aid, and for this reason alone I’d recommend JMU. </p>

<p>Were I a Wisconsin resident, absent extraordinary circumstances you’d better believe I’d send my kid to UW-Madison over any CTCL school (or any liberal arts school of similar caliber) – unless, as in your case, the CTCL school cost less. I really don’t think we disagree that, if you can go to a CTCL school for LESS than state school tuition, it very well may make sense to go.</p>

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<p>novaparent, you suggested that students from the “top” schools were “better” than others, with the implication being that they would have better outcomes. I responded with a question–if that is true, then why would any graduate of these schools end up at a so-so business or law school, for example? Shouldn’t they always have their pick of the crop of “top” programs?</p>

<p>In any case, a lot of the CTCL schools publish lists of where their graduates end up. (This of course includes careers, not just graduate school admissions.) But here are a few that should help dispel your notions:</p>

<p>HAMPSHIRE
Institutions where the largest numbers of Hampshire graduates have earned higher degrees (in decreasing order of frequency):</p>

<p>Columbia University
University of Massachusetts/Amherst
New York University
Harvard University
Yale University
Boston University
Cornell University
Smith College
University of California/Los Angeles
University of Pennsylvania
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Northeastern University</p>

<p>ST. OLAF
Here’s a list of outcomes for St. O graduates in several categories, according to their area of study–you can see the entire list on their website:</p>

<p>Masters in Public Policy (MPP)</p>

<p>Economics major, Harvard University, JFK School of Government
English & Political Science major, Ford School at University of Michigan
English & Psychology major, Hubert H. Humphrey Institute of Public Affairs
History major, Harvard University, JFK School of Government
Mathematics major, University of Minnesota
Political Science major, Hubert H. Humphrey Institute of Public Affairs
Political Science major, Pepperdine University, Malibu</p>

<p>Doctor of Philosophy: Various Academic Degrees (Ph.D.)</p>

<p>American Racial and Multicultural Studies (ARMS) & Religion major, Stanford University
Biology & Mathematics major, Mayo Graduate School
Biology & Philosophy major, University of Kansas
Biology & Chemistry major, University of Minnesota
Classics & Religion major, University of Oxford (Rhodes Scholar)
Chemistry major, Scripps Research Institute
Chemistry major, University of Chicago
Chemistry major, University of Wisconsin
Chemistry major, Washington University, St. Louis
Economics & Chemistry major, Duke University
Economics & Political Science major, Washington University, St. Louis
English & Music Performance major, University of Toronto
German major, University of California, Davis
Mathematics major, Duke University
Mathematics major, Northwestern University
Mathematics major, Rice University
Mathematics & Chemistry major, Iowa State University
Mathematics & Chemistry major, University of North Carolina
Mathematics & Chemistry major, University of Washington
Physics & Chemistry major, University of Minnesota
Psychology major, Southern Illinois University
Psychology major, Yale University</p>

<p>Really, why are we arguing about this?! There are SO MANY great schools in the CTCL group. Yes, there are many other great liberal arts colleges that are better-known–but they are not necessarily “better.” There are excellent options for a wide range of students. That is the whole point of this discussion. :)</p>

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<p>I’ve just got to add my two cents worth here: My daughter is a high school senior. She’s smart and thoughtful. She was accepted to Williams, Bowdoin, Haverford and Davidson. She’ll be attending a CTCL school this fall. The “full ride plus” was too much for her to pass up. Sure, the stats of the “average” kid on campus will be lower than those of the more selective LACs. But, her role as a leader on campus will provide her with some extraordinary opportunities. We’re confident she’ll be challenged. And the people [students, faculty, admission staff] at the college she ultimately chose seem “real” to us. We’re excited for her. We think [and hope] it was the right choice.</p>

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<h2>“Yes, I’d say that U-Va and William and Mary probably are “better” than virtually all CTLC schools and all other state schools, at least in terms of the academic qualifications of their undergraduates.”</h2>

<p>The ACT range for UVA and William and Mary is similar to that of a number of CTCL schools. Of state schools, I’d agree that they are among the best–right up there with Michigan and Berkeley. You are lucky that UVA worked out for your kids. But the point is: not all kids WANT to go to a large R1 university. My son wanted a college that was smaller than his high school, with personal attention from faculty and small classes for all four years. He didn’t want a college with a dominant Greek scene. No matter how great any state school was, he likely wouldn’t have chosen it. Again, it is all about FIT.</p>

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<p>It is evident that novaparent enjoys giving advice/opinions regarding schools about which (s)he has very little knowledge. I am fairly certain that in addition to having no firsthand knowledge of the CTCL schools, it is obvious that (s)he has not even cracked open the book for which novaparent has such distaste. Otherwise, (s)he would have known that Grinnell was indeed one of the original CTCL.</p>

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^^ So, you believe that a college that admits “higher qualified” students means that it is a “better” school? I’d say that a school that admits a wider range of students and actually educates them all is much more successful.</p>