Mental math tests are not uncommon in finance and consulting interviews.
My old law firm used to ask for a writing sample from applicants from non-elite schools.
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My H has played golf since he was a kid. It has been a great networking resource for him. He is not a techie but works in that industry in business development and client relations. His clients are from all different industries. Whether or not my kids will end up in jobs where being a golfer is an asset remains to be seen, but they have been playing since they were kids and enjoy it. Older son’s first summer job was on the landscape crew at a local golf course, something he wrote about for his college essay. He has gotten a lot of career advice from random people he’s met on the golf course (getting placed into a foursome with strangers). He took his clubs to college with him last year. It was one of the few social things he was able to do when the pandemic had stopped/limited many campus activities (at least four of his friends also play).
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It is really cool that your son has found something to connect to people with.
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Hmm. I think it’s something to discuss but I kind of drop my control at “Please get a BA and see where that takes you…”
I have a B.A. in creative writing! I was on the receiving end of A LOT of comments from my friends and family about how worthless that degree would be, but I have worked in book publishing since shortly after college graduation and loved it. I do think if I’d been pushed into teaching (a more practical choice) or something more lucrative like law - I would have stopped working a long time ago or not been as successful. My best friend from HS is a pediatrician and we both feel like we had a calling and we are doing what we were meant to do.
So, if my D23 wants a degree that not practical - I would be the last person to dissuade her!
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So cool to see UNIX pop up on this board even if off topic. I made my entire career on UNIX (certified in the early days at Bell Labs and, later, Sun Microsystems. I knew Bill Joy at Michigan). Our son knows every bit of UNIX lore and history and is fluent at the deepest kernel levels and does all his cyber hacking and development in various UNIX environments. He demonstrated a reverse shell attack to me just last night. A lot of our phone conversations are UNIX-centric. Not the usual mom/son stuff but interesting to us.
OK, back to the topic…
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I do hope companies get away from networking via golf or video games or whatever else makes it harder for women and URM to break into it be promoted in industry.
I work at a tech company (not in tech) and we want diversity of all kinds and not just CS or Engineering graduates for our tech jobs.
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Bad luck can be very limiting (e.g. kid wants to go to college, but kid’s divorced high income parents spent and continue to spend the college fund putting their divorce lawyers’ kids through college). But good luck often does not by itself mean success, in that it takes some level of talent, hard work, resiliency, and/or persistence to make use of it.
The same can be said for any of the other qualities mentioned (talent, hard work, resiliency, persistence).
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Lol, I got my FIL’s permission to marry my DS on the golf course. He was glad to get a “ringer” as a SIL.
You do learn a lot about people on a golf course, especially if you play for some money (doesn’t need to be a lot). Besides conversation, you see personal characteristics like persistence, competitiveness, adherence to rules/honesty, humor, reactions to success/failures, temperament, etc… It is not that you get a read on all of this at the same time all the time, but more often than not, you pick up on things.
I have heard of what you mentioned, and I am sure it is a great sport. On the flip side it is mostly a rich person’s sport. That is what is limiting about golf. You’ll miss a lot of people. I heard a lot of other random stuff about what kids are doing while socializing – board games, poker, rock climbing, watching sports together, hiking, community service activity, shared interests in music – playing/creating music etc.
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I haven’t read each post on this thread word for word but done a decent skimming job.
My comment would be “no” we didn’t suggest our kids seek degrees that would be better paying. Our 3rd child who is in the health care field will almost for sure start out at a decently higher pay than her brother or sister did. But she also has more years of loans to accumulate!
The fact that we encourage kids at age 18 to “decide” on a career or the idea that we as parents could/should influence an 18-22 year olds career decision is really an example of the wide range of maturity for young adults TO decide on a career. And it’s REALLY wrong if we expect they will pick one and stick with it for the next 40 years.
Trained teachers may decide to become health care workers. Business professionals may decide to become teachers. Police officers may discover the EMT world is where they want to be.
A college or technical “degree” is just a starting point. As experiences and maturity set in - and as $$ starts to flow in and out of bank accounts, young adults may start on one career track and stay there - or make changes. While I wouldn’t need their blessing I sure would hope my immediate family/parents would support my interests and lifestyle choices as my own - whether they are $ or $$$$ producing.
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I understand this sentiment. However I’m wondering if there is something that is likely to replace these popular networking activities. DS plays golf well and I can think of instances where he has already benefited from it at the age of 25.
DD wanted nothing to do with it when she was younger. She is now in management consulting, finishing her MBA and both she and her bf have been taking lessons through the pandemic. They both felt it was worthwhile to learn to golf.
I don’t know if I believe that 100%. It is true that the people running the trading desks are numerate, and many have completed PhDs. Just FYI, for those doing interviews, they do not expect financial literacy BUT if you have completed a PhD in XYZ, be prepared to be interrogated on your thesis and matters related. I have heard more than 1 tale of a bright young PhD put on the spot when asked about thesis and fumbled.
Very recently, in the last 2-3 years, I know of a young psychology graduate from a T5 school getting multiple offers to be in BBB training program while a BBA graduate from a T100 with more numeracy did not get an interview. I think that T5 gets you a BBB interview no matter what your major is unless it’s SO far off course, while a BBA graduate with a ton of related courses may get you bupkes. Where it’s murkier is the mathematics graduate from a T50 school. And this is why we have kids shotgunning T20s.
Very off-topic, sorry!
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I have to disagree. I am a female golfer and there is nothing limiting me. My son and husband and myself have made many connections on the golf course. Let’s encourage more women and URM rather than always trying to eliminate a good thing.
In our area the golf courses run clinics and golf camps for URM and sponsor kids to play.
Of course you “will miss some good talent”
My son doesn’t do video games, at all. He certainly doesn’t feel cheated if some gamer makes a connection through their gaming networks or video games. Good for them.
I know several guys who play basketball together at noon every day. Many a deal or connection is made on that basketball court. Should we hope that connections are no longer made in that way also because women aren’t usually playing basketball with the men. URM typically are though.
A local bank hosts womens networking luncheon once a month. No men invited. Should we put a stop to those too.
I believe in all kinds of diversity. Diversity of networking, diversity of sports, diversity of interests, diversity of opinions as well as racial and other social diversities. We need to start encouraging and raising people toward goals and expectations rather than always trying to eliminate.
The biggest way we miss good talent is our focus on 4.0 students and online applications. The computer eliminates many many good candidates before they even get a chance. In my profession, acceptance into the program is competitive and I have mentored students who have no business in the profession because of their people skills, but by golly they are book smart. The 3.0 to 3.5 students were the best candidates because they had the people skills and personality and empathy required but they were written off by the computer without ever even given a chance.
Sorry for my rant but this is just a pet peeve of mine. Now back to our regularly scheduled program……
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As someone with zero hand-eye co-ordination, I can only look on enviously while people network on the golf course.
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Hmmm, isn’t it the case that some people play golf to increase social contact with rich people who may have money to be helpful later?
There are a wide variety of roles at a bank. You could go into a salesy role with a Psych degree.
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Lol, exactly. Even an all female, beginners welcome, “golf for dummies” opportunity wouldn’t help me!
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I think pickle ball is now replacing golf, haha.
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While this is not about frats or similar gatherings, let me use that as an example to make a point. There is a lot of lateral networking also that is useful apart from benefiting from rubbing shoulders with rich folks. The hardest eating clubs to get into at Princeton are bicker (like rushing) and lean very rich. A lot of the nerdy clubs are sign-in. The nerdy eating club crowd doesnn’t care to network with the kids that go to the most selective eating clubs. Each cohort self-selects to stay in their lane. Potential new money vs old money. What I am saying is that there is a video game (or similar) network that often has a different vibe than a golf cohort. And a lot of the nerdy kids just don’t care. My son bickered for one of the “hard to get into” club just to check them out, and they were telling him that they also have nerdy kids – and one of their kids even joined Facebook the prior year. He was laughing to me. He was amused that they thought that joining FB was considered some seriously intellectual accomplishment. Didn’t say anything to them. The lateral connections help kids do things together as they got older – start companies etc. Very valuable. I guess it boils down to whether you need to network with money or whether you need to network with talent. Not saying golf playing kids are not talented. I am generally talking inter-generational networking vs peer networking.
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We did not dictate our kids majors but we did make sure they were aware of the potential ramifications of their choices. They both chose majors that are very similar in terms of field of study, but with different academic focus and potential career outcomes, which is very much in keeping with their interests and personalities. The older one chose a more academic/theoretical pathway, Physics, and the younger the more applied/professional pathway of Electrical Engineering.
The younger one is the most practical. He has various interests but not necessarily deep passions. His chose Engineering for it’s practicality and potential to lead to a comfortable lifestyle with sufficient funds to pursue his personal interests in his free time. He chose Electrical as while it aligns with his specific interests, it is still general enough to have broad applicability to multiple industries thus providing greater flexibility in terms of employment choices. His goal is to get his degree and join the workforce as soon as possible. For him formal education is a means to and end.
The older one is highly intellectual and an excellent student so his choice to major in Physics is very much in keeping with his personality. He has a wide range of interests that he is passionate about including in the arts, and is an accomplished musician. I’m not concerned that he will be unemployed as there are plenty of options for careers that are degree agnostic and we have impressed upon him the advisability of choosing some courses that will compliment his degree by providing practical employable skills. He is also pursuing internships so that he has relevant work experience to make him more attractive to potential employers. The bigger issue for him however is that unlike his younger brother, he is less likely to be happy in a job that while lucrative he finds uninteresting or monotonous. He had a job like that the summer after his first year of university and he hated every moment of it. He has been much happier with his subsequent internships related to his program despite the fact that they have paid significantly less. Fortunately his lifestyle tastes are very frugal which will give him greater flexibility in pursuing employment out of a sense of interest/passion vs necessity (but he is still practical enough that he ruled out a career in music). The unfortunate thing for him is that career to which he is probably best suited, university professor, is one of those “elite or bust” type careers, and his chances of actually attaining it are slim. Also while I think he would make a fantastic academic, I’m not sure that he has the personality to be successful in the cutthroat world of academia.
Both my kids are fortunate in the capital they can leverage coming from a stable, high income home, with educated and invested parents. The one aspect they have holding them back is their personalities. Neither one is a “go getter” or “hustler”, the characteristic that led to their father being so successful in his chosen career. As much as I would wish that success in life could be based on merit and being a nice interesting person, I am not so naïve to believe it to be true.
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