PharmD degrees here in Canada are undergraduate degrees. Like some other 1st professional degrees you only need to complete 2 years undergrad before applying so it takes 6 years not 8.
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This discussion reminds me of a conversation I overheard while in rehab for my broken leg, between a nurse and CNA who was working his way towards nursing school. The nurse, a BSN, told him to skip the RN (not sure if I have the terminology right, but referring to the Associate Degree) and go directly for a BSN. She explained his opportunities would be limited, for example he wouldn’t be able to work in a hospital as they only hire BSNs now.
I wonder if that reflects a type of credential creep? I certainly dont know enough about it, but I could see how both chronic nursing shortages on one hand and increased complexity of the profession on the other could be factors in play.
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I believe that the BSN is the level of education you receive (a nursing degree at a 4 year college will give you a BSN). Somebody with a BSN can become an RN by passing the required tests.
It is my understanding that an associates degree will give you a 2 year degree in nursing. You still have to pass the same exam to become an RN.
A four year degree and a two year degree can lead to becoming a licensed RN (the way I understand it).
Further education is necessary to become a nurse practitioner. There are accelerated programs for BSN’s, NPs, and combined programs for those who did not major in nursing.
Ok, thanks. That helps clarify. Sounds like RN is the licensure. BSN vs (whatever the associate degree level is called) is the level of education. It makes sense that the former would include further training. And I would assume the BSN would be required to get advanced degrees in nursing, not just NP but e.g. master’s or more in a particular specialty.
FWIW, my nurse friend mentioned upthread had what I recall was a 3 year associate degree. She worked in hospitals her entire career, but of course is retired now. Things change, and it could very well depend on the particular hospital, or the location. Anyway, I’m no expert. I’ll ask her about it next time I talk to her.
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Which might suggest the jobs where additional requirements are imposed would be those with strong professional organizations (or unions) which can dictate standards for entry to the profession and/or influence lawmakers to require them, especially using arguments such as safety.
It’s particularly pernicious when those organizations ally with educational providers who will receive the fees from providing that education (which I suspect explains the difference between the US and other countries: there’s a lot more money to be made from providing that education here).
Hence we get ridiculously excessive training requirements for say hairdressers or manicurists, who generally require vastly more training than police officers. It’s very notable that the police academy is simply a cost to the employer and not provided independently as a pre-requisite by an educational institution who would then lobby for more training to be required.
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Here is an interesting opposite perspective on the credentialing creep. My son tells me that 90%+ of the work at a large tech firm can be accomplished if you took just 4-5 courses in an undergrad CS program, out of the 12-16 needed in a major, and out of the 35-40 needed for the entire bachelors if you include all the Gen Eds etc. The rest of it is going to be self taught or learn on the job skills anyway. I think if you want to go for BB Investment Banking jobs, the situation is similar. And these are purportedly the high paying jobs.
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Funny you should say this. Before I posted my above question about the difference between nursing degrees, I searched online. The results that came up were almost all from educational institutions, which uniformly said…surprise, surprise…“You should get a BSN!”
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Ive heard similar things about certain types of engineering. Obviously depends on the particular field and/or position, as some do require in depth technical knowledge. But, for example, I’ve had design engineers tell me they never use any higher math than trigonometry.
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At my company most tech jobs can be done by doing a Boot Camp and or certificate, no need for a degree in CS, yet we won’t hire anyone without a Bachelors.
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CS covers a wide spectrum of jobs and programming is just one of them. Even among those whose jobs are primarily programming, there’re vastly different levels of skills. Bill Gates was once quoted saying that “If you think you’re a really good programmer… read (Donald Knuth’s) Art of Computer Programming … You should definitely send me a résumé if you can read the whole thing.”
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D2 just graduated with a doctorate of OT. Was it overkill? Maybe. 3 continuous years starting one month after graduating undergraduate.
Is she well educated? Have a good grasp of research? Yes and yes. Very in-depth health based education. Capstone and similar process to a thesis. Had to defend. Oodles of clinical experiences. I think she will enter the field very versed and prepared to analyze and treat. She will appreciate research and know how/why it works.
So I don’t think it was a matter of taking the 80’s path of a bachelors degree and throwing some extra classes in. It was more like a shortened medical school/residency experience.
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I was talking about the US. Some people I think are able to get PharmD in US in 6 years but most take 8. Either way, its more than is really needed.
Though not sure what the pharmacist market is in Canada. Here in my parts of the US its oversaturated and its something of a race to the bottom in terms of pay and quality of life for many pharmacists.
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A degree obviously helps in being hired, particularly for the the first job, but plenty of software developers do not have a bachelor’s degree. For example, 35% of participants in the Stack Overflow software developer survey said they have less than a bachelor’s. Many well known tech companies say that can and do hire a portion of software engineers without a bachelor’s, including Google and Apple.
This does not mean that a tech company is going to interview any random person without a college degree who applies for a software position. They need to have relevant experience and/or proof of competency to get an interview, then will typically have more detailed tests of technical CS-type knowledge within the interviews. A CS degree can help with this proof of enough competency to get to interview stage, particularly for first job. This relates to why most software engineer type job listings say they require a bachelor’s in CS or related field in the listing. Job listings that don’t require a degree instead often have statement like, “BS/MS in Computer Science or equivalent experience”, among numerous other desired skills/requirements.
There are also plenty of opportunities for self employment in CS, which do not require a degree. One can become a freelancer and offer services on various websites or create an app/website, without a CS degree. I started a website about an analysis type hobby not long after graduating, which became a small Internet company and a larger source of income than my day job in engineering. It did not require a CS degree, but having knowledge of website development was very helpful. I initially did all the website programming and SW tool development myself, so the initial net expense was <$10/month for hosting. A good portion of other website owners in the field that I worked/communicated with hired some employees without bachelor’s degrees for this type of website development, which was typically the bulk of their expenses.
However, not having a bachelor’s degree is often limiting in which CS jobs are available, particularly for first job. Even lack of graduate degrees can be limiting in some fields of tech. There is a lot of variation in requirements for different positions, as well as a lot of variation in how much knowledge from college classes will be used on the job. Once the applicant gains relevant work experience, past college degrees become far less relevant.
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Really amazing how most of the developed world has top notch medical specialists without the excessive credentials. Perhaps part of the problem with health care costs here.
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You shouldn’t need to do a 4 year undergrad before you start a 4 year medical program. Significantly increases the cost of education. And then supply should be freed up. Congress determines the number of residencies on offer every year, and this is the bottle neck. And of course there is the last 6 months of life issue.
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The associates degree in nursing (ADN) is what the associates degree level is referred to. Note that it is possible for someone with an ADN and an RN license to do what is called an RN-to-BSN program to complete a BSN in order to qualify for credential-creep jobs that specify a minimum of BSN.
Some aiming for BSN may do the ADN first followed by an RN-to-BSN program, because it allows RN licensure after two years and the ability to work at some (though a more limited set of) nursing jobs if money limits the ability to do four years of school in one shot. Also, some BSN programs can have highly competitive secondary admission or aggressive weed-out of direct admits, so they have more of a risk of students completing two or three years but then ending up with nothing after being weeded out.
Yes, it can be complicated even for high school students who know what they want to do (nursing in this case), and many parents may not know enough to advise them well on some of these aspects.
Thank you for clarifying all this. Thinking back on the conversation I referred to, this sounds like exactly the situation the two were weighing the pros and cons of.
I do really seem to recall my friend took three years to get her ADN, but perhaps programs vary. It’s also very possible (probable? 
) that my memory is wrong. Oh well, it’s beside the point here.
I think one of the advantages to nursing is the ability to keep working while you advance.
You can work as an RN while completing the BSN- as noted
You can work as a BSN while completing the NP credentials
You can work as a NP while completing certification for advanced nursing in genetics, etc
Teaching has this too. You can teach while completing your masters.
Students with a bachelor’s in something else can also do an accelerated nursing degree.
Many RN and BSN students seem to work as nursing assistants. Working as a CNA also apparently helps with admission to nursing programs.
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CMS added 1000 residencies within the last two years. @WayOutWestMom can confirm when this happened.
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