Difference between expect (softly or otherwise) and insist. There are a lot of kids who expect their parents to fund/buy a whole host of things. Whether said parents will actually do that is often another issue. Kids can insist away if they want but it won’t necessarily change the outcome.
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In the context of this thread, there is another avenue to explore – people here are most reluctant to “insist” that their kids do this or that major. But is this always the case at any age? At what age do you become completely handsoff? Would you try and influence the kid at some earlier age than high school graduation – say at the age of 8, 10, 12 or 14? To try and talk to them about this career vs that? Would you leave it to random chance. After all kids tend to pick up on majors and areas of study that they are favorably exposed to at an early age. Even if the parent doesn’t influence the kid, the school, teachers, and the kids’ friends are all influencing the kid anyway, all the time. And does this mean we don’t give any unsolicited advice to our adult children?
This is true about far more things than careers.
What I’m gathering from most posters here (myself included) is that they are in a good position to give their kids lots of information about pros and cons of various careers, in some cases info they didn’t have themselves at that age.
Whether they decide to encourage (or require) particular majors, and whether the kids take any advice offered, comes down to individual priorities, values, and choice.
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Agree, they don’t call it an IQ test, but I know some tech companies, especially the smaller ones, use what they call aptitude tests, but seem pretty similar to IQ tests. They also require personality tests. Some of this is because certain venture capital firms require these tests when taking over these companies, for existing and new employees. Apparently they’re also used to determine compensation if you get hired. I think there are some companies, notably Google, that use the interviews to determine salary as well if the applicant gets an offer.
I think there is wide gulf between insisting on career paths and random chance.
Even if one says absolutely nothing about careers, the kids see you going about your job and whether you are happy and fulfilled. They also see how you are situated economically as a family in your neighborhood.
We have never insinuated as to whether one career path was better than another but I hope that our kids can see that we derive a lot of satisfaction from our education and our jobs. We have always told them how much fun college was for us both socially and academically and they hear us talking about new discoveries, new ideas, new books. Of course they roll their eyes but it does sink in.
I’ll use another example. I like cooking and I like eating mainly “cooked from scratch” dishes and learning new recipes. The kids were picky eaters and don’t eat much of anything. But the tide does turn, and now my eldest cooks and eats a wide variety of food and shuns processes foods (hallelujah!) Ditto exercise.
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In addition, I think most parents (at least on this forum) take into account the strongest interests and aptitudes of their kids. It becomes a problem when you’re trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
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I have a friend that was recruited by an investment bank out of Columbia’s Physics Department, where he was studying for a masters. It turns out the calculation for a currency derivative was very similar to some kind of arcane physics formula and the Wharton MBAs didn’t understand it.
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I pushed my girls to consider tech careers in large part because I wish someone had given me that nudge. I’m a pastor and my husband is a teacher and we both have had fulfilling careers, but not as high paying as might have been nice. And we both have aptitude in math/tech areas, we just didn’t get encouraged. That said, my youngest defiantly said “no computer science” even after a summer at MIT’s Women in Technology program. She was an international relations/econ major with a Russian minor. Her advisors tried to steer her to intelligence work but she wasn’t interested. She found a research assistant job at a public policy institute out of college and learned and grew tremendously. She also took advantage of tuition remission through the related university and got a masters in, drum roll, data science. Very happy as a health care related data scientist. The oldest basically majored in poverty studies through a poly sci/econ major and has worked mostly in social media for large corporations. She has had some great years – spokesperson for a major Disney product for a while – and some ho-hum years. The middle one got a CS degree, did programing for startups and 2 of the big ones, and then got a certificate in Technology and Music Production and works as a sound designer. There you go. All their jobs have paid as much or more than my husband and I ever made, at least after a year or two.
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I was surprised that many computer geeks and quants in my class struggled with the basics in our supply chain management class; to me, everything was very logical and similar to chemical kinetics - your bottleneck is you reaction limiting reagent… kind of like that.
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This topic reminded of a joke I saw at a conference (sadly, its all too close to the truth):
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Of course not. But I hardly think insisting a child go to bed at the designated bedtime at age 10 is the same as insisting on a particular career.
I suppose you can talk to them about careers at age 8 or 14, but I don’t think it would get much traction in most children. The alternative is not random chance.
Outside of a few tightly defined paths, like medicine, careers are dynamic. They unfold and evolve. It’s never a one-time irrevocable decision.
I wouldn’t unless it’s related to health or safety. I feel that the more unsolicited advice we give our adult children, the less they will solicit and value our advice.
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Interviews including tech problem solving during interviews are typically a key contributing factor to which applicants get an offer for CS/engineering type positions. There is often a phone screen interview, as well as a series of on site interviews, both of which involve solving tech problems. It’s not unique to Google.
Interviews rarely “determine salary”, such as offering a wide variety of different salaries to different successful applicants for equivalent positions, depending on their interview ratings. I haven’t heard about Google doing this… Similarly scores on IQ/personality tests rarely “determine compensation” in this way and in many types of tech positions are rarely used.
I’d expect salary is more likely to be influenced by things like the specific position including level; stated past salary history and stated salary expectations; perceived value of applicant to company/team including skill set, experience, and degree level (interview may influence this); location applicant will work from; and negotiation including size of competing offers.
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I agree with this generally (especially as kids become older adults - a 20 year old is a lot different than a 30 year old). What I’ve found helpful (and I use this at work and with friends) is to preface any kind of ‘advice’ (after first determining that it’s worth going out on a limb to offer it) is to preface with “Of course this is just an idea…” or “Just throwing this out there as a thought…” or “Just a little something to consider…” It might be semantics, but it really does seem to help mitigate the “here’s what you should do” vibe w/kids and others…
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While at UIUC for my MBA, Banker’s Trust came on campus to recruit (they were slumming at Midwest state schools). They had interested students take a financial knowledge exam and a personality test.
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I think this is good advice and in my experience it generally works. Right now I’m in a bit of “mom heaven” as my DS is looking for his 4th apt in 4 yrs. I try to always say “did you consider…” or something like that and then follow-up at the end with “this is your decision and, I trust you’ll weigh all your options and make the choice that feels right for you”. In the case of the apt hunt DS is not a big talker and through this process, he’s been forthcoming with sharing more than usual. I also like that he doesn’t ask “what would you do” but lays out his likes/dislikes and will ask “am I missing something”.
Edited to add: he gave me access to the Google spreadsheet he created so I actual see his thought process and record keeping from his apt tours. (Mom heaven indeed)
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Another good tool is to use personal analogous experience, using both good and bad consequences. The conversation could be, “I had a similar choice XYZ. At the time I decided to do A because … It turned out as/not as I thought because DEF and I should have also considered GHI…” Another good path is “Let’s go through the pro’s and cons” and let the child come up with their own list with some help but more importantly let them balance the factors and come to their own conclusion. Advice when asked will be more readily received. The more collaborative and less judgmental the advice, the more it will be solicited.
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I want my son to have the benefits of my experiences but have never told him what he should do based on those experiences. He is his own person and he’s going to live in a world that’s different from the world that I lived in. I told him to do his own research and explore the possibilities, and any advice that I offer should be treated as such. He knows he can always use me as a sounding board for his ideas and the final decisions that affect his life will always be his.
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1NJParent, We took a similar approach when our son was making his decision. We had him do research and compare the schools in terms of outcome, salary, network, grad school admissions, atmosphere, fit, etc. We then re-visited his finalists to fill in the blanks. Our take was “It’s your decision, but know what you are getting into.”
My kids are very different.
One’s engineering mindset was evident from early childhood. I suggested engineering, of course, but also suggested considering being a plumber or electrician. No one was surprised when that kid chose mechanical engineering.
The other kid leaned to the arty side of liberal arts and was not going to get a vocational degree. This kid is also very entrepreneurial. I figured they’d do fine no matter what the degree, and would be able to check the college degree box. Ended up graduating from a top school in that major, which has opened doors.
This. I’ve been trying hard to use this sort of approach with my adult kids. Recently I felt the rare need to steer a kid in a particular direction. “Of course it’s between you and your spouse, but given A, B and C, you might want to consider X or Y. I suggest you ask and see what they say.” It helped that they initiated the discussion. I was not surprised that they are following my suggestion.
This approach leaves me thinking about the stereotype that women have to be wishy-washy or they’re considered (insert mean adjectives.) That’s another thread. Discussions between family and friends are appropriately approached differently than in business.
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I think this is really important. I also think that having a high school kid speak to others in a field s/he’s interested in is worth it. There used to be a focus on what is someone good at and what are jobs that fit those natural talents and skills. I wish more of those programs were available.
College is very expensive. IF a kid thinks s/he wants a certain path then finds it doesn’t fit, that can be an issue. Plus kids often don’t know what’s out there. So some but most don’t.
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