Did your child ever say "Mom, I wish you pushed me harder?"

Parents Forum
21

A few questions to think about when you’re deciding whether to give your kid the freedom to make an academic choice.

  1. Is the choice irrevocable?
  2. Does the child fully understand the short- and long-term consequences of the choice? (This may mean that the parent has to find out about the consequences and inform the child.)
  3. Is the child mature enough to make the decision?

Two examples:

  1. When picking courses for 11th grade, my son wanted to take regular chemistry instead of honors chemistry because the honors course involved a time-consuming independent project. I pointed out that this might leave him in a bad position in terms of SAT Subject Tests -- science was one of his best subjects, but the regular chemistry course wouldn't prepare him as well for the Chemistry Subject Test as the honors course would. We then discussed the colleges he wanted to apply to, and I discovered that he had some very appropriate choices in mind (based on his interests, his PSAT score, and his GPA). None of those colleges required SAT Subject Tests. I let him take regular chemistry.
  2. In 8th grade, my daughter decided that she wanted to take the admissions test for our school system's selective-entry International Baccalaureate program, and she scored well enough to be admitted. My husband and I were unable to find out enough about the program to be sure it was a good fit for her. There was a risk that the program might be too difficult, which could lead to a lot of stress and a low GPA. But she wanted it very much, she had thought through the choices thoroughly, and the decision was not irrevocable. Students who start the program and find out that it's not for them can transfer to their local high schools after a year. So we let her sign up for the IB program. It turned out very well.

If your child chooses to take a less-than-top-level math sequence now, that choice is probably irrevocable. It’s almost impossible to move up in math later. (On the other hand, it’s quite easy to move down.) But I’m not sure what the long-term consequences are in terms of high school course choices and college admissions. Perhaps it would make sense for you to meet with the guidance counselor to go over the long-term consequences of choosing the different math tracks before deciding whether to allow your daughter to make the decision.

22

I don’t see having a kid take the appropriate level of challenge in middle school as grooming her for college, but as placing her at an appropriate level where she has to learn to work harder than she would in a too-easy class.

I disagree with those that think that peers or other outside influences have that much to do with how motivated kids are. I have really come to believe it is internal. Either the kid is competitive, and thus wants to do well in comparison with others, the kid is focused on getting the best grades possible in the hardest classes, or the kid is not. For the third kind of kid, parental and peer pressure can help a bit, but will not turn a kid that is satisfied with a B+ into an A student.

Prior to having my kids, I felt as though my parents did not support or encourage me enough to do as well as I could have in HS. I thought that having supportive and slightly pushy parents would mean that my kids would be top students. They did very well, but were not top ten percent, which they were all capable of, but they just weren’t motivated by grades or rank. Perhaps it was our parenting style, but I see others who were more hands off and who have kids that made it to super elites. I see others who were very hands on and pushy, whose kids did not.

23

Another thought…we had to point out to DS16 in middle school that he had great friends but they were on a different academic path. He still has some of those friends but grew to like not being in classes with them all day since it then was really focused on fun when he was with them. He totally understands now and appreciates that he has earned more scholarship $s and has more college options than they do.

24

^^^ exactly what me29034 said. It really is so dependent on the child. I’m following this thread to see what parents with kids out of college have to add. We are just at the point where our oldest is weighing his college options as a senior, our middle is taking a semester off sophomore year due to illness, and the youngest is a happy 12-year-old two years away from any tracking (our school starts math tracking in 8th).

With the oldest, he was always academically motivated and we let him make his own choices. He has taken AP’s in areas of interest (history, english) but only honors physics and topped out at AP Stat for math. He went from a very small middle school (13 graduating 8th graders) to a biggish public comprehensive high school and spent most of freshman year just trying to get used to the way bigger social scene. I did strongly encourage him (you might say force) to pick one ec which turned out to be the best part of his high school experience. He has told me that he is grateful I made him show up to that first audition and he wouldn’t have gone if I hadn’t made him. Not really related to course selection - but pushy nonetheless. It all worked out for him as he is choosing between schools where he feels he will be happy. He could have taken a more rigorous path in HS (we didn’t push) and he did get rejected by some of his reach schools, but he is happy with the choices he has.

The middle one… well, that’s a different story. Not especially motivated by grades or academics and I don’t think a bulldozer could push him to be someone he isn’t. We offer suggestions, he takes some of them and not others. He is also pretty clear that he doesn’t want to go on to selective schools and we are fine with that. We are clear with him that his choices now will have consequences for immediately after high school. Our local community college is excellent and if that is where he ends up he may find something there that really inspires him. Then those doors to UC will open that he left closed in high school. We shall see. I’ll report back in 10 years to let you know how it all turned out!

25

This is an interesting thread, as it’s making me examine some of my assumptions. When my daughter was in middle school my attitude was, if there are two math tracks of course my child will be on the higher one. Since she wanted that too it wasn’t an issue. An issue did come up in high school as to whether she should take AP global studies or regular global studies sophomore year. She ended up not taking that AP class because history and social studies weren’t her thing anyway. She took every other AP class that she could fit in her schedule. Now we’ve just gone through the college application process and my daughter has some great choices but has been rejected or waitlisted by the tippy-top reach schools on her list. If she didn’t get into the reach schools because she didn’t take that one AP class then I give up.

26

I “push” my children to do their best. If that means advanced math, then I will strongly encourage and guide them to the advanced math classes. But I will also hold them back if I feel they are not ready for advanced classes of any sort. They still need a lot of guidance at 12, 13 and 14. Middle school is too early to think about doing school so you can get into the top colleges. That may lead to the child focusing too much on external feedback (grades) than internal feedback (find out what you truly enjoy and then go do it). Middle school, however, is a great time for kids to learn that working consistently, remaining focused has its rewards. (In other words, take the harder class.) Also, I tell my kids they can always drop down a level if they find themselves overwhelmed. It’s far more difficult or impossible to move up a track if they find themselves bored and unchallenged.

27

When I was starting HS, I remember my Dad asking if I really wanted to take all those honors classes…I did continue with the honors track in everything except science. We had the choice of like Earth Science or Honors Bio…somehow regular bio was not an option. I did earth science but now kind of wished i had been pushed to Honors Bio…although it didn’t matter because i ended up in Honors Chem and Honors Physics and then took the equivalent in college…I don’t think I would have done spectacularly in AP sciences and wouldn’t wanted to take the honors version in college.

With my youngest when she was picking Freshman year courses she also was a little worried about all honors…i knew she could do it so encouraged her…except for Spanish which she was worried about (she had done middleschool in Germany and the language courses were at a much faster pace) so for that I told her she could take SPan 2 instead of Span 3 so she could haev an “easy” class…that made her more comfortable and would not affect college as she took through Span 4 which is what any college would require.

Oldest took High Level Math, High Level Chem and High Level Physics as part of her IB diploma (most people gasped at that) but she loved it.

Definitely push toward honors if she is capable…their friends change based on who is in their classes at this stage.

Re; studying…my opinion was that if you were getting good grades (As, maybe a B) then you can study however you want. I did have to start helping my younger plan her weekends a bit…otherwise there was too much flurry of activity Sunday night…I would tell her to get some done on Friday before she went out…and have at least half of homework done by Sun.

28

My kids are pretty self-motivated and have, on occasion, thanked me and acknowledged that I don’t give them a hard time about grades, etc. I’ve never pushed. I’ve actually worried on occasion when they’ve stressed completely over grades because I’ve thought it was past the “healthy” point.

I have one big regret where I didn’t push – SATs/ACTs. I offered them classes & tutoring, which they declined, multiple times. (Boring! I don’t want to miss practice! I don’t like the kids taking it! I don’t need the math part of it!) I bought them practice books and study guides. Did they use them? Not really. They took a practice test or two. I’m not sure they cracked the spine on the guides. One ended up with 2000/31, the other 1800/29. Horrible? Absolutely not. But I’m certain they could have done much better.

29

gasp

At my daughter’s IB school, this would have been impossible because the kids were required to take English and History as two of their HL subjects (the SLs didn’t fulfill state graduation requirements in those areas) and because the school didn’t offer HL Chemistry.

But even if the option you describe had been available, I can’t imagine a kid doing it.

30

Peers matter for competitive kids.

If your child’s friends are highly academic, your child will want to keep up with them. It would be humiliating not to.

Thus, if you discover that your child is making friends of that sort, you may want to do everything in your power to encourage the friendships – no matter how many times you have to drop them off and pick them up at the movies (and maybe even pay for the movie). It’s worth it.

31

We come from an extended family who absolutely do not push (our parents didn’t push us; we didn’t push our son; our siblings don’t push their kids). We offer information/advice and plenty of opportunities and then let kids make their own choices, follow their own interests, and mature at their own pace. This has, IMO, led to good results–kids ending up at colleges and universities and grad programs that are good fits, pursuing paths that truly interest them, feeling supported by family, and developing independence. There is a very strong stubborn and independent streak running through the family, so I suspect any other method would have backfired.

To answer the original poster’s question: No. I can’t imagine anyone in our extended family wishing they had been pushed more.

32

IMHO you have to parent the kid you have.

One of mine cannot be pushed - it is an unproductive approach with him. My other one needs a little pushing. I was more like the second one and wish I had been pushed a bit more (in a positive way).

Both need encouragement and constant prayer and focus on what is best for them as individuals.

33

it depends. like everything. as a student, I wish that i had been pushed. I had a tentative personality and kind of low self-confidence. Being pushed to do things that I was nervous about (for no “real” reason) would have led to confidence gains for me. I don’t blame my mom, but yes, I wish…
Incidentally, the stubborn streak can exist with or without the nervous/anxious streak. I was anxious and stubborn. I think that is a combo that could use a little push now and again. Other kinds of personalities might respond poorly…

34

I think it’s fine to encourage within the limits of what is appropriate for your child.

However at age 12, I would NOT connect it to college aspirations, but to more general benefits like learning for learning’s sake or the personal satisfaction of challenging oneself.

35

I think there will be a wide variety of responses to this thread. Kids who were pushed and who always did their best, and who achieved great things, may still feel they were not pushed enough, or may feel they were pushed too much. Happy bears will understand their porridge was just right.

As a young adult, a couple years after college, I thought about telling my parents I wished they had pushed me harder. But I realized that a lot of this was due to my mom having had mental illnesses, and she was struggling so much herself, so my siblings and I were sometimes neglected. Perhaps less so physically, but definitely intellectually and emotionally.

I was blessed with academic talents, but I had little to no direction/encouragement, and I tended to take the path of least resistance, the one that required very little effort. I did very well in school and on my SATs, and when I did put effort in I excelled. Most of the time, however, I put in little to no effort, and I still pulled A’s. A few of my peers earned A+'s after spending all of their time studying, while I ended up doing homework on the bus, and housework at home, caring for my parents, siblings, and grandparents. I realized, later in life, that I had made choices that had consequences, but mostly I am making the best with the cards I have been dealt. Instead of wishing my parents had pushed me to apply for scholarships that I didn’t know existed, I ended up taking loans to pay for school, and working several jobs through school. I was so focused on the debt I incurred, I never considered graduate school.

My H and I had a number of conversations about how much to push our pups, how much to guide them, and how much to let them be themselves. It turns out, even though you know your kids, and are raising them to make good, informed decisions, there will be a number of times that they just don’t have the right cards.

And as long as I am using the card analogy, remember the life advice from the Gambler You’ve got to know when to hold them, and know when to fold them. Every hand’s a winner, and every hand’s a loser. Maybe you’ll break even.

I never told my parents I wished they had pushed me harder, because by the time I realized it, it would not have been helpful. I was fortunate enough to share with them before they passed away how much I appreciated how much they did for all of us. Today, on the fourth anniversary of my mom’s passing, I remember not her passing, but something she told me when I was a senior in college in 1987, as we talked about post-college choices. She said “Sometimes you wish you were born rich instead of beautiful!”

As parents, we chose to share some of our own experiences with our own pups, when they were starting high school, both as encouragement, and a way to talk to them as people instead of as children. Our pups are naturally very determined, hard working, conscientious young people who have understood since a young age that their future is up to them, and their parents are here to support them and guide them. We will give advice when needed, and sometimes even if they think they don’t need it, but we will take our cues from them, listen to them instead of only wanting them to listen to us. Which is of course easier said than done.

The thread title is - Did your child ever say “Mom, I wish you pushed me harder?” For me, specifically, yes.
My son did once tell me to push him harder - but it was when he was six, at the park on the swings, and he told me and the whole park that “Daddy always pushes me way way higher!”

36

I didn’t push, but I made suggestions - the difference in my mind being that I tried to provide some guidance, but I didn’t nag or insist that she do what I said. My daughter (now a college senior) has said that she wishes she’d followed up on more of my suggestions. She does NOT say that she wishes I’d forced her to do so.

37

I was not pushed. My parents couldn’t push if they tried. I loved it. I lead the way on everything. It encouraged me to be independent and my failures were on me, not on anyone else because I made those decisions. I’m now a PhD student at a top school so I guess it worked for me.

YMMV BUT your child is 12! Good grief give her a break. Putting pressure on her at this age, and yes that’s what you’re doing by talking about top colleges, is likely not going to end well.

38

Thanks for everyone’s replies. I probably should have added that I feel a strain of responsibility because my daughter skipped a grade between 2nd and 3rd - and at that time it was entirely my decision. So now she is starting high school a year earlier than her peers, and sometimes I question myself - was I wrong to follow teacher’s recommendations in 2nd grade, because now she is younger than everyone else and maybe not as motivated.

I was a pretty hands-off mom throughout elementary and middle school. I am almost embarrassed to admit that after teaching her to read at the age of 3 in our native language (I heard it’s better to start early before the kids learn English ) and multiply by kindergarten, I let the school take over. I didn’t check homework (she had all A’s), I rarely spoke to the teachers (whenever I did, all I’d hear was praise), I knew which classes she takes, but was almost never involved in the selection process (I tried once to ask for Spanish I in 6th grade and was told by grade counselor if they make an exception for 1 student, they’d have to make exceptions for all and the school can’t afford another Spanish I class for 6th graders). An acquaintance of mine (kid in another school, another district) wouldn’t take no for an answer and went all the way to district and got the class she wanted for her kid, I didn’t go beyond an e-mail inquiry. I don’t know if this was bad parenting on my end, just had a lot of other things going on in life and wanted to give my daughter some independence.

Beyond academics, I let my daughter stop taking piano lessons after 2 years when her teacher moved away and she didn’t feel like trying new ones. D still plays for pleasure without me ever asking her to, but of course on a low amateur level, while her old teacher raved about her potential and begged her to continue with a new teacher so to not waste a talent. I don’t know if she’d ever regret not being pushed at 8 when she was still a kid and couldn’t make that decision on her own.

I somewhat regret not pushing her to study for SAT for CTY. I brought a study book to her and offered to help her get a head start summer before 8th grade and she didn’t want to study at all. Husband supported her, said it’s too early to study. I let it go - thought it’s irrelevant for college, so why push. She got over 1,800 on the test, but not over 600 on all 3 subjects, thus not qualifying for merit scholarship for CTY classes and we won’t qualify for need-based aid. So when I told her she won’t be taking any CTY classes even though she is eligible because I think the money are better spent on college tuition, she asked me “I should have studied when you told me to, right?” Not exactly why didn’t you push me, but close.

Going back to course load - based on her middle school placement test, she was placed in Algebra II (10th-12th grade class). But there is also Algebra II with Trig (9th-12th grade class). Both after completion can lead to Pre-Calculus Honors. I made my daughter write an e-mail to GC asking which class is more challenging - to teach her to be her own advocate. I can’t tell if her reaction was resentment or just surprise because I was so hands off earlier. Was that pushing? I don’t know.

My own parents were very un-involved in my school - we immigrated right before high school and even if they wanted to help me, they couldn’t. But I was also very self-motivated - I am not sure my daughter is. Before, she just went with the flow, was recommended for advanced English and math classes, but it never occurred to her to talk to counselors to asses her options. After getting SAT results, she learned that one of the kids in school got 770 in math, partially because he skipped Algebra I in 7th grade and was already taking Algebra II in 8th grade in community college. My daughter didn’t even know it was an option. She basically slept through that “Advanced” Algebra I class because she already knew most of it through supplemental after-school math program she is in, and didn’t know there was an option to take a test and skip the class. I don’t know if this experience taught her the importance of being pro-active, but again, it was me looking at the school curriculum and asking “why are you taking Algebra II and not Algebra II with Trig - which one is more challenging” instead of her.

I hope I was supporting and guiding, but if it was resentment and not surprise in my daughter’s eyes, does it mean I was too pushy?

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@romanigypsyeyes, a large part of me agrees with you. I know I just wrote a long post, but I thought I’d also post a reply I also wrote to an IM to better explain my dilenma:

[I still feel a bit guilty for deciding for her to skip a grade] When the teacher recommended she gets bumped up a grade between 2nd and 3rd and we did it, we hired a tutor to help her get caught up with English and it worked out wonderfully. Then 4th-5th grade I was very hands-off - difficult pregnancy, new baby, my daughter still got all A’s, President’s Merit award, local scholarship for best academic achievement in her school, etc. When I tried to get more involved in 6th grade (asked for her to take Spanish I a year earlier because 6th grade electives other than music were essentially a waste of time and she didn’t want to do band), she got somewhat resentful - “am I not doing well enough on my own that you have to be involved” and I backed off. She’s done fine, but essentially just doing well while going with the flow. If I was more involved, if I pushed her [if I spoke to the counselor and found out about an option to take a test and skip a math class], she probably could have done exceptionally. I told myself it’s just middle school, it doesn’t matter. But it certainly matters for college now that she’s about to go into high school.

Because she feels she’s been so independent up to now, I think she might resent my involvement. Teenage years are hard enough without thinking your mom doesn’t listen to you or doesn’t believe you are capable of doing everything yourself. She doesn’t understand that it’s precisely because I believe in her, and believe that she is capable of achieving the highest things, that I want to help get her there.

So yes, a part of me wants to give her more space so to not jeopardize ruining our mother-daughter relationship. But if I step away and she later realizes she did not reach her potential because she wasn’t pushed [and she is probably too young to push herself], wouldn’t she resent it even more?

40

I don’t think it is realistic to expect a 12yo, even a gifted one, to understand the implications of which math class she takes in 9th grade on her future. Or even to fully grasp how hard a particular class will be. I would expect the parent and GC to help make those decisions. For 8th graders in our district, the guidance counselor meets with the student and the parents to make those decisions based on a list of proposed courses.

It is too bad that CTY is too expensive, but even if she had scored above 600 on each section, not sure how easy the scholarship is to get since it is not given to every kid with over 600 per test.