<p>Honestly, every counselor I ever talked to was unqualified at best. My college counselor actually said I’d get in to many places, but he told my friends that were applying to UCLA and UC Berkeley that they had no chance. </p>
<p>Obviously, all my friends succeeded in transferring to these institutions.</p>
<p>A high school friend of mine was told her HS counselor said she didn’t have a shot at Cambridge. Guess where she is now?</p>
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<p>Can you elaborate on this?</p>
<p>In public high schools, can a GC refuse to complete a recommendation letter for a student? Under what circumstances?</p>
<p>When you say the letters “are earned,” what does that mean? Many or most public high school counselors do not personally know their assigned students well enough to provide a “professional assessment” on their own; rather, they rely on the student and his parents to give them the info they need to complete the form.</p>
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<p>Not only that, but it seems they also take into account whether most/all of a given HS’s graduating class rejects their offer of acceptance when it is given in the next round of admissions. </p>
<p>According to my GC, one Ivy decided to reject everyone one year sometime in the '80s because the previous year, everyone in the previous graduating class who was accepted by that Ivy turned down its offer of admission for whatever reason. </p>
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<p>The GCs certainly did at my public STEM-centered magnet…hence my GC’s story of discouraging an older classmate with Ivy-level stats from applying to BC. </p>
<p>Not sure whether they still do it now…but they were doing it during the early-mid '90s when I was there.</p>
<p>The funny thing about our school is that they have sort of class warfare. The top students are given a royal treatment and are told that they will get into any U they want to from Harvard to MIT to Stanford. While for other average students they are told that the best college in our state (which is a very good U) will be an extreme reach and told them to apply to a little easier school. This type of elitism is horrible!</p>
<p>Interesting post. My S graduated in 2008 and was encouraged by his GC at large public HS (who knew him well) to apply to the most elite private and top UC schools in CA and NOT to apply to state schools at all. He did that, and did well with his acceptance options. </p>
<p>D’s GC at small charter school never discouraged or encouraged either way which I think was good considering she barely knew D.</p>
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<p>cobrat,
If your GC refused to write a rec for the qualified student who wanted BC, she was not “discouraging” the application, she was preventing it. For the sake of the students, I hope she has retired.</p>
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<p>Which is why most large businesses won’t give letters of recommendation any more. All most will do is confirm the dates of employment. Some will also answer a question as to whether the employee was fired or left voluntarily. That’s it. </p>
<p>In some regulated industries, the law provides limited immunity for defamation claims. You have to be able to prove that any false statements were made with actual malice. That’s a very high standard and few people can meet it.</p>
<p>I really do NOT think students and parents ought to be able to see LORs. Sometimes, a GC will mention something that the college should know, e.g., that Sarah’s mom has a drinking problem and that problem has adversely affected Sarah. If Sarah’s mom is an alcoholic in denial, she’ll go beserk if she sees that and might even take it out on Sarah : “What did you say to your GC? I told you not to tell anyone that I got arrested for DUI. How dare you?”</p>
<p>If Sarah’s mom has never been arrested but really does have a drinking problem and the kid is coping with it, you do not want to be the GC who says S’s mom has a drinking problem and then run the risk that S’s mom will sue you for libel and you’ll have to prove that she does have a drinking problem. What are you going to do? Call Sarah to the witness stand and force her to admit that she broke down in the GC’s office and admitted that mom has a problem and it’s tearing the family apart?</p>
<p>Sorry, but that^ is ridiculous. The GC absolutely should not mention Sarah’s mom’s drinking habits, and there is no reason in the world to do so. If the GC believes that Sarah has untapped potential for various reasons, she can say so without labeling Sarah’s mom a “drinker.” How can a GC even make such a statement without verification? </p>
<p>What you have described is exactly why GC recs should NOT be protected from disclosure.</p>
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<p>Huh? UCs are state schools.</p>
<p>These days, do guidance counselors help students assess reach/match/safety including cost considerations? For example:</p>
<p>Student: Do I have a realistic chance at NYU?
GC: Based on your previous mention of your family being short of money, you should be aware that you are aiming for NYU’s top merit scholarships, because NYU does not give good financial aid, and you are unlikely to be able to afford to attend if you do not get one of the top merit scholarships. See the net price calculator on its web site if you want to know the details.</p>
<p>It does seem that college counseling is more complicated now. Back when I was in high school, most colleges other than the super-selective ones were much easier to get into. Most four-year-college-bound students went to the state universities anyway, and could reasonably tell if they would get admitted to one based on looking up their GPA and test scores on a chart (the flagship was more selective than the chart, but students understood having safeties among other less selective schools in the state university systems). Many more just went to community college (some to later transfer to the state universities). Costs were less of an issue back then due to being significantly lower (after adjusting for inflation). So the GC’s job advising college-bound students was probably not difficult compared to now.</p>
<p>On the other hand, information about various out of area and less well known schools is much more accessible than it was back then. If a student back then wanted to know if some little known far away school was suitable for his/her academic interests, s/he or the GC would have to order a printed course catalog or something and wait for it to be delivered, instead of just going to the school’s web site.</p>
<p>I assume MrsDrz used the term “state schools” to mean schools that are part of the California State University system, as opposed to the University of California system.</p>
<p>My older children were at a school for a year where all the classes were AP, but they discouraged the kids from actually taking the AP exams. Of those who took them, they usually did not get very good scores. So, I think my children came out of there thinking they were brilliant because they had A’s in all these top classes, but no one ever had anything below B’s anyway.</p>
<p>I wish colleges did not put so much faith on GPAs. That does not tell much. Things are so inconsistent from one school to the next.</p>
<p>The original post is vague and lacks specifics so difficult to comment there. However, if someone is set on applying to the ‘…college of performing arts’ and has no interest in theatre/performance/dance, etc. then I would expect the couselor to point that out. If you don’t play a musical instrument and are convinced a top-notch school of music is for you, then I think you need some ‘guidance’ on choices that fit your interests and skill sets.</p>
<p>A lot of counselors don’t keep up to date with current stats of matriculated students at universities. I had higher than 75th percentile GPA and SAT scores at every school I applied to, yet my counselor told me that I wouldn’t get into a few of them. Most of them seem lazy and don’t really care about their job, or else they would take the time to learn more about universities before giving advice.</p>
<p>Op, adding a twist…D had the opposite experience. GC at private HS told D that she had too many targets and safeties on her list. GC was concerned that if D got accepted at the schools (and if she was unlikely to attend) then D would take up a space and possibly block out a fellow HS student’s acceptance for their “dream” school.</p>
<p>There are good GC’s, Lousy ones, and many in between. My oldest, now a HS Senior has a wonderful GC, who unfortunately retired in June. We will soon see just how good the new GC is. The old GC told us she left detailed notes for the new GC on those kids who spent the time to allow her to get to know them - that will probably end up being about 5 or 6 of the 60 seniors he will deal with, and not necessarily the top students.</p>
<p>The old CG was honest about the implications of taking harder classes - the most selective schools want you to take a rigorous course load, but a B in the AP class will hurt both your weighted and unweighted GPA compared to an A in the honors class (A in honors = B+ in AP, not too much weight added). She helped those who asked figure out where they needed to be. Everyone else got teacher recommendations, and a bit of guidance if their schedules looked out of whack, but maybe not as much assistance because they didn’t seem to want it. With 50+ kids from each of 4 grades, she chose to focus on the kids who were actively working with her - help those who help themselves.</p>
<p>I don’t think she would have refused to send recommendations to any individual school, though she might discourage applications if they seem totally inappropriate. But the culture at our HS is a bit odd. The Pricipal stopped D in the cafeteria to let her know she is a National Achievement Semi Finalist - the office still needs to get the paperwork to her. She is ranked 51 out of 250, so just missed top 20%, yet we have NO National Merit Semi Finalits, and while they take PSAT both Sophomore and Junior years, they didn’t really do anything with the sophomore results to encourage those who might be close to work on bringing their scores up.</p>
<p>one of younger D’s friends has an older sister in college whose GC never suggested taking SAT II exams. When she found out friends in the next town over were taking them, she contronted GC who said she didn’t need them, because kids from our town don’t apply to schools that require them - this to the #3 ranked student! Yes, the kids need to research a bit to see what is required to the schools they want, but it’s a bit too late at the beginning of Senior Year to take the SAT II for US History when you took the class as a Sophomore!</p>
<p>Excellent thread and great responses. Anybody have the opposite happen, a kindly GC who knows kid’s older sibs went to competitive schools and is encouraging current non-athlete non-gifted senior to apply to schools that aren’t realistic? I don’t want to hurt the GC but I wish I had someone to talk to about schools that would be suitable. I do feel that this GC will happily support wherever kid applies, just have to find those schools on our own.</p>
<p>My (private religious) school can and probably will attempt to block or dissuade any college apps they don’t approve of. Theoretically, you can apply and go wherever you want, but in practice, not so simple.</p>
<p>Stories like this, frankly, just leave me jaded about the whole K-12 system. My guidance counselor wasn’t worth squat - a fairly nice guy, but my family life was going to heck and it would’ve been nice if he’d actually cared. I still got a partial scholarship to a top 25 university but that was with no thanks whatsoever to the stupid high school.</p>
<p>The lesson here is to take charge of your own future and not trust the school system, period. As a few other people have noted, your interests and the school’s/counselor’s interests are not necessarily aligned. Still, success is the best revenge, all the more so given that education today is a fallback career for people incapable of earning a living in the real world! ;)</p>
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<p>What do you mean they can block college apps they don’t approve of?</p>
<p>My advice is to do all your research on your own. Nobody helped me with college or grad school apps, and the counselors in college were surprisingly clueless about grad school admissions, too. There are a lot of forums out there that can help you in the process. Counselors, from my experience, in high school and college, don’t really know anything.</p>