<p>I have asked college councelors, and representatives from both schools to present differences between the two institutions. Other than the student run honor code that Haverford maintains, what are the major differences? Additionally, which school maintains the superior music program?</p>
<p>There are more similarities than differences, so keep that in mind as you read the following. The differences, in many cases, are relatively small. In other cases, not:</p>
<p>a) Swarthmore has three times the endowment of Haverford. Swarthmore spends $68,300 per student compared to $54,200 per student at Haverford, but charges (on average) $2,300 less in tuition, room, and board. The financial resources show up in many areas -- from the physical facilities, landscaping, to the money available for student projects, and so on and so forth. Swarthmore is has one of the largest per student endowments of any college or university in the country and it shows in many little ways.</p>
<p>b) One of the key areas where the difference in resources shows up is in campus diversity. Simply put, Haverford cannot afford as many financial aid students. Hence, the have to select 57% of their students who will pay full price compared to about 51% at Swarthmore. The end result is a whiter, wealthier student body at Haverford with less ethnic diversity (especially Asian-American) and about half the number of internationals. Overall, Haverford is 71% white and US compared to 62% at Swarthmore. That's a difference that is noticeable walking around campus.</p>
<p>c) The whiter/wealthier part of the equation makes Haverford a bit "preppier" compared to Swarthmore, which is decidedly more multicultural. However, the difference in the campus cultures also results from Haverford's history as an all-male college whereas Swarthmore was co-ed from the beginning. These factors probably explain why Haverford has somewhat more of a drinking culture than Swarthmore (although certainly Haverford would not be considered a world-class party school).</p>
<p>d) Haverford is definitely not chopped-liver, but Swarthmore is generally regarded as the more academically intense school. There is a culture of strong academic engagement and heavy workloads at Swarthmore. This shows up in certain academic measures. For example, only two tech schools Caltech and Harvey Mudd produce more PhDs per graduate than Swarthmore. Fiske Guide says that Swarthmore is, "pound for pound, the most intellectual school in the nation..." That's probably fair. The students and the professors seem to enjoy it.</p>
<p>e) Both have strong Quaker roots, although Haverford is probably the more "Quaker" of the two schools today. However, "social responsibility" is a major theme at Swarthmore, running through the curriculum, the school's policies, and student interests.</p>
<p>f) A subtle difference that you might not think about is that Swarthmore houses freshmen students in regular dorms with upperclass students. Haverford has segregated freshmen dorms. This has a strong influence on the campus culture as Swarthmore students benefit from the influence of older role models and tend to absorb the overall campus culture rather quickly. This probably plays a role in the below average drinking scene -- despite the fact that alcohol is readily available at campus functions.</p>
<p>g) Music? Neither would be considered a music powerhouse. Of the two, Swarthmore has more extensive (and nicer) facilities. Haverford has only had 1 music major in each of the last two years. Swarthmore has averaged 3 or 4 per year over the last five years plus another 6 or 7 theater majors. I think that Swarthmore has more music groups on campus, both formal and informal (acappella groups, rock bands, etc.) Most of Haverford's music groups are combined with Bryn Mawr. Honestly, you'd probably be best meeting with professors in the music departments at both schools and exploring the offerings in your particular interests. It is quite possible that one offers more in a particular area; the other in a different area.</p>
<p>Thank you so much for that detailed, succinct reply! Very helpful!</p>
<p>Since I would be doing a liberal arts education - (double major music and one of the social sciences - pre-law, political science, etc), can you recommend a similar school to Swarthmore but with a bigger emphasis on music? I remember from speaking with the SWAT representative that SWATies have access to UPenn and can even arrange (based on audition) lessons at Juliard. Is anyone familiar with that arrangement?</p>
<p>You really need to get in contact with the head of the music department at Swarthmore. Start with e-mail and go from there. The music majors who I have heard from there love it. The schools pays for some (or all, if you are good enough) of private lessons, including lessons with teachers from Curtis Institute (the hoity-toit conservatory in Phila) and members of the Philadelphia Orchestra. You get course credit for the lessons. </p>
<p>But, the programs are very individualized. There is a lot of one-on-one seminar stuff at Swarthmore that just shows up in the catalog as "Course #XYZ - Special Topics" -- basically just you and a professor studying what you want to study. The most efficient way for you to find out if they can put together something that is right for you is talk to the music department directly.</p>
<p>The son of a regular poster here (longtime Interlochen/Tanglewood camper) just visited and seemed to really like what he saw and heard from the music department. But, the next guy might not find what he needs.</p>
<p>Here's the link to the music department webpage:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.swarthmore.edu/Humanities/music/%5B/url%5D">http://www.swarthmore.edu/Humanities/music/</a></p>
<p>There's a lot of information there and you can find links to the professors to contact. Just e-mail them. They don't bite. They will be interested in you.</p>
<p>Williams would be worth checking out, too. They have a larger music department (but not proportionally more majors). For example, they have a larger orchestra combining students and semi-pro players. Downside is that you give up the access to an urban music scene including a major symphony orchestra and some of the resources that run in those circles, plus it's kind of nice to be able to hear top-shelf performers.</p>
<p>Oberlin is an obvious choice, but the conservatory program may actually hurt your opportunities. I don't think double-majoring is a viable option -- the top musicians there are pretty single-mindedly focused. So, sometimes the regular liberal arts students get shut out of the music opportunities. Another poster here found what she needed in a large music program at Smith.</p>
<p>Thanks again. I definitely should have done more research about Swarthmore before a published that question. Thank you for the response.</p>
<p>I would also check out Wesleyan; it would be difficult to imagine another LAC, outside of Oberlin, with more or better facilities dedicated to world music, electronic and digital music, dance, theater, jazz or classical orchestral music. Or, with a higher percentage of majors.</p>
<p>My son spent the weekend at Swarthmore. Upon leaving, we decided to stop by Haverford. I see no comparison at all between the two schools. The only similarlity is that each has an Arboretum. Swarthmore - for good or bad - is extremely diverse, uninhibited, sparking and slightly kooky. The Haverford students struck me as being a bit elitist, far removed from reality, and so preoccupied with their darned honor code I wanted to just shake them. This code is something they wear like garlic against the vampire, or the big bad wolf. I have no doubt the students are brilliant, but the honor code can feel like saran wrap to the wrong kind of person.</p>
<p>I really like to comment on what intersteddad has said on freshman housing policy at Haverford. I am a freshman at Haverford and it has been the best time ever in my life. I am quite surprised and bit disappointed at the same time when intersteddad refer Haverfords freshman as segregated (from the campus) when he I think has no means to judge our housing arrangement and the way we, the freshman, live here. It is just the complete opposite. We have costume group (upperclassmen), who live in the same hall and look out for us every time; ( they are the one who helped us carry our luggage into our room when we moved in; they are the one who made us cry during the orientation as when we realized our obligation towards the community and the world and what we ought to do for the world.). My hall-mates have now become my best friends, the kind of friend that I have never imagined I would ever meet in our life. I have so many thing I wanted to write right now but I have to leave within a min.... but when freshman like me who had been nervous during the first few days at college saw other people in the same boat, it was a huge relief- a huge huge relief; and the way we became friends during our custom week is memorable.
And in completely different note, our endowment has gone way up since last year when we raised more than 200 million just for scholarships and academic recruitment.
..
will write again..some time later..</p>
<p>Also, why do you think that Williams trying(has copied, from what i have heard from my friend at william..we are a role model for them as they disscussed their housing plans) to copy haverford freshman orientaion (ie Costum Week). </p>
<p>Also if you think that the swarthmore is academically more challenging than haverford...try asking some swarthmore students who are taking class at haverford (or haverford students taking class at swarthmore...ill give her email address..as u ill know how she compares swarthmore and haverford academically; and i dont want to be hostile here).</p>
<p>Could you PM me with her email address? Thanks. Also genie<em>in</em>a_bottle, can you elaborate on your comment, "The Haverford students struck me as being a bit elitist, far removed from reality, and so preoccupied with their darned honor code I wanted to just shake them." especially the part concerning the honor code. In the little CD thing that Haverford sends people, the students rave about it, so I am very interested to read a different point of view.</p>
<p>Darkmatter:</p>
<p>Please note that I think Haverford is a superb school, but the question was about specific differences. Freshmen housing is a huge difference between the two schools -- in ways that most people would not consider.</p>
<p>Although there are other examples, Swarthmore's first-year housing is fairly unique in that it is not segregated at all. By "segregated", I mean housing first-years in dorms that are designated as specific freshmen dorms. I understand that these freshmen dorms have a handful of upperclass students, whether they are called CAs or RAs -- both of which Swarthmore also has. But, that is not what I am talking about.</p>
<p>At Swarthmore, first year students live in the same dorms as upperclass students. There are no "freshmen" dorms. The closest thing to a "freshmen" dorm is Willets, which is about half freshmen and half sophmores. </p>
<p>It is a completely different experience when 16 freshmen live on a hall with 12 sophmores, juniors, and seniors -- interacting on a daily basis, at the sink in the morning, hanging out after dinner, socializing in the lounges. There is a degree of informal mentoring and role-modeling that changes the dynamic of college adjustment.</p>
<p>First, it breaks down the barriers between classes. When I was at Williams, I don't think I ever met a student who was a senior during my first year and the only juniors I met were my RAs. That doesn't happen at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>It is enormously useful in getting the "inside scoop" on course selection, departments for potential majors, and general help figuring out how to manage the academics. More than likely, there will be a major from any department living on your hall. I know that my daughter benefitted from casual conversations about several departments and several professors. Because the upperclass students benefited from this when they were newbies, they are by and large willing to share with the freshmen on their halls.</p>
<p>Finally, by integrating the classes, you lose the "critical mass" that sometimes leads to "kids gone wild" behavior in freshmen dorms. I think this is the key social norms factor in Swarthmore's relatively moderate drinking scene.</p>
<p>I understand that there are equally compelling reasons to favor a freshmen apartheid housing system. Having lived that system when I was in school and having observed the housing system at Swarthmore when my daughter was a freshman, I have a strong preference for integrated first-year housing.</p>
<p>In practice, what tends to happen is that the freshmen on a hall run in a pack for the first month or two. But, as the year progresses, they begin to socialize more and more with the upperclass students.</p>
<p>On this issue of academic intensity: </p>
<p>I think that is often misinterpreted. It does not mean that individual classes are "harder" at one school than another. There are harder classes at Swarthmore and easier classes just like everyone else. I don't believe that any given class is harder than what I experienced at Williams.</p>
<p>What "academic intensity" really refers to is the percentage of the student body that is fully engaged with their classes. By fully-engaged, I mean really enjoying them, doing the work because it's kind of fun, eager to talk about the stuff they are learning. There are many students like this at every college, just as there are kids at every college (including Swarthmore) who are just going through the motions. However, as the proportion of fully-engaged students increases, it reaches a point of critical mass where the students push the professors and the professors respond (enthusiastically) and push the students in turn. This dynamic is especially fueled at Swarthmore by the large number of small seminar courses.</p>
<p>This is not to take anything away from Haverford, which I am quite certain is well-above average in terms of academic engagement. I don't know that you could quantify a comparison and, if you could, it would have to be based on a large sample, not one or two students. I can tell you that Swarthmore's reputation for a high degree of campus-wide academic interest is deserved. It's really been quite fascinating to watch.</p>
<p>Swarthmore is the best school in the whole wide world. It's probably the only school in the entire world where students are engaged in their studies so much so that they push the professors. Only at Swarthmore. You can't get this at any other school. Swarthmore also has no problems. The students are perfect. The professors are perfect. The campus is perfect. The way they do things there is perfect. I think there's a t-shirt that reads "Swarthmore. It's Perfect".</p>
<p>....?.....</p>
<p>Kelly,
I detect a note of sarcasm. ID is an extremely enthusiastic Swat parent. He has been extraordinarily helpful to many who have visited this board. As you well know, no school is perfect, even if it may sound that way coming from a parent whose child is having a wonderful experience. If you feel that ID is presenting an "all-too-perfect" picture, you can more easily ignore those posts than take a jab at him. He may have useful information, even for you, somewhere down the line.</p>
<p>I second the sentiments of momof3; ID happens to be very well-informed, articulate and helpful. He should be thanked and not mocked.
Swarthmore happens to be one of the very best universities/colleges out there, nothing wrong with id sharing that fact with other ccers.
If my child is lucky enough to attend there in the future I hope to join the cheering section.</p>
<p>If the poster were really interested in information instead of trolling, he might ask the knowledgeable Swat parents, students, and alum what the "minuses" of the school are. All schools have pluses and minuses, some generic to the size/type of school; some more specific to a particular school.</p>
<p>Sometimes, the same characteristic can be a plus and a minus.</p>
<p>aweadmrirer wrote; (7 -23-05)</p>
<p>UPENN student perspective,</p>
<p>ohk, i got to know about this site from my freinds. i like to tell something about haverford and swarthmore, and what makes them different. </p>
<p>Swarthmore is highly competitive school with highly competitive student body. You will challenge yourself and with others. Haverford in the other hand is also very competitive school, as competetive as Swarthmore, but differs from Swat. Student body at Haverford is non-competitive, where you 'not even once' talk about grade, and Haverford is a one of the few place where talking about grade is discouraged to the point that others leave conversations when you start talking about grades. I wanna talk more about Haverford first and then come back to swartmore again, and express my views on how this competitive-noncompetive enviroment plays a huge part in separating these two excellent schools on completely other side of the pond (academics wise). </p>
<p>In Haverford, as i told you before discussiong grade is highly discouraged; Apart from this, you wont ALSO find that much of people at Haverford disscussing how hard the class is and how hard you have to work. When i took a class at haverford, I found that I was not forced to work hard and do well. Classes were indeed tougher (you can compare physics courses at upenn and haverford;aslo the gradutation requirement, if that is a point of your interest) than that of Upenn, and its harded to get an A in haverford than in upenn; but never in my whole semester did I feet over-stressed or overwhelmed. </p>
<p>In Swarthmore, I also found that classes were tougher, and grade inflation was outrageous. Nevertheless, I got a feeling that people really cared about how well I was doing in my exams and quizzes (I also found that grade disscussion is not really discouraged). This might be the reason why I was more stressed due to Swarthmore class than haveford class although they were equally tough. Personally, I have a deep respect of Swarthmore, and its an amaging college; but this (competitive enviroment) is the only thing that i didnt like of Swarthmore (and Upenn).</p>
<p>Swarthomore has Honor's Course whereas Haverford doesnt although both have honor programs; but haverford provides honor in a very unusual way from what i have heard (from the depth of your senior thesis). </p>
<p>You, prospective students, might have heard how notoriously hard the classes at Swarthmore are, and nothing about haverford classes. So did I. And this is just because of the competitive swarthmore enviroment and non-competitive haverford community.</p>
<p>I have to point out that what you have posted contradicts EVERY Swarthmore student and alum I have ever heard talk about the issue -- and it is a frequent question posed to current students at the Live Journal Community. They are unanimous is saying that comparing grades is considered taboo. With the possible exception of her roomate when they are both taking the same course and looking over papers they just brought back from class, my daughter has zero idea what grades any of her friends get and vice versa.</p>