Difference between an Ivy and a Top Public School?

College Search & Selection
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<p>Shutterstock, yeah, dream on. I used to work with a lot of MIT people too.</p>

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<p>My head hurts even more.</p>

<p>So here’s the thing about networks: I attended a public magnet HS, Ivy-equivalent for undergrad, and got an MBA from an M7. Of the 3, the M7 network has helped me most in my career, but the magnet was second. Now, before you say that it’s because I didn’t attend an Ivy, I recently went back to a HS alumni thing where another alum stated that the network of our magnet was more helpful than any other institution he attended. I was a little surprised to hear that since he had attended Wharton for undergrad, but Wharton undergrads do have a reputation for being d-bags, and it makes sense that d-bags wouldn’t help each other out much (though it sure makes it seem like the perfect fit for you, @WhartonnotHYPS‌).</p>

<p>BTW, there are more Cal EECS and UIUC CS grads who are startup founders than the CS majors of all but 2 schools (Stanford and MIT).
Finally, if you go to an undergrad Street target (which Haas, Ross, and McIntire as well as Kelley are), getting a job on the Street is mostly up to you as an individual. Only Harvard and Wharton lead everyone else.</p>

<p>Only thing with Cal is that admission to Haas is not guaranteed out of HS.</p>

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<p>@WhartonnotHYPS‌ </p>

<p>The Wharton career survey says that the average starting salary is a little higher than 60k:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.forbes.com/pictures/lmj45ldjg/no-1-university-of-pennsylvanias-wharton-school/”>http://www.forbes.com/pictures/lmj45ldjg/no-1-university-of-pennsylvanias-wharton-school/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The article someone posted earlier said that Berkeley cs was 80k and eecs was 90k. </p>

<p>Do these numbers accurately represent the majority of students, or is there a part of the picture missing? </p>

<p>Also, do you have salary numbers on the M&T program there?</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Good grief. The “amazing companies”! The proportionally better network! The “in” group!</p>

<p>Sorry, anyone with experience in the real would would not fall for the exaggerated claims of a high-school or college student.</p>

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<p>@PurpleTitan‌
Yes, but the problem with top public schools like Michicgan are you’re mixed with top students and mediocre students. When the acceptance rate is 20%+ and the transfer acceptance rate is 25%+ it dilutes the quality of the school in the eyes of top employers. Understand UC Berkeley is MUCH, MUCH larger (26,000 undergrads) than either Stanford (6800 undergrads) or MIT (4200). So proportionally, they’re performing poorer than many other schools. </p>

<p>Haas, Ross, Kelley, Stern are semi-targets. For example, here is UC Berkeley’s results when it came to their undergrad program: <a href=“https://career.berkeley.edu/Major/BusAd.stm”>https://career.berkeley.edu/Major/BusAd.stm&lt;/a&gt;
Very, very few end up at top consulting/banking positions. That’s just the fact of the matter.</p>

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<p>No I agree the bottom at top public schools are probably lower but my nephew’s best friend got into Harvard and has been at investment banking almost ten years and last I’ve heard he was bragging about $250K in NYC. Not that impressive.</p>

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<p>Very few people end up top banking positions because of the pyramid like structure.</p>

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<p>@Shutterstock: Very, very few end up at top consulting/banking positions out of <em>any</em> school (with the possible exceptions of Harvard & Wharton). That’s just the fact of the matter.</p>

<p>Also, yes, the bottom at a public will generally be lower than the bottom at an elite private (though note that plenty of athletes/URM/legacy who wouldn’t be impressive otherwise are still let in to the Ivies). However, if recruiters show up . . . how does that affect you? Bain isn’t looking to hire the middle 5% of every school. If they can get 4-5 high quality candidates at a school, they’ll still show up. After that, it’s up to you the individual, not your school.</p>

<p>And again, as I’ve stated, the Ivies fill close to half their student body with ED/SCEA these days, and in ED/SCEA, every Ivy besides Yale has a higher admission rate than Cal.</p>

<p>And yes, Cal is much bigger. Cal also has a 75th percentile ACT of 34 (equivalent to a 2250 SAT). That means that there are more kids with a 34/2250 or higher at Cal than there are undergrads at MIT, Dartmouth, Brown, Princeton, or Yale.</p>

<p>@DrGoogle:</p>

<p>Agreed. Making roughly that amount while working half as many hours in a city that’s half as expensive (or less) is much more impressive, IMO. </p>

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<p>@PurpleTitan‌ Harvard/Wharton aren’t the only “holy grails.” Include Princeton (which actually sends more students to finnance than Harvard), Yale, Stanford, MIT, and possibly Duke/Columbia. ACT scores don’t indicate the future succes of the person. How many of the ACT scorers had nothing else to show but that ACT score? Private schools are selective to the point where you have to have the test scores, but also have to show succes and passion in extracurricular activites.</p>

<p>EA/ED acceptance rates are higher because the pool is extremeley competitive. Bottom line is, name one of the HYPSM then compare it with any top public school. The cross-admit rate will be 96% towards the HYPSM school and <4% at the top public school. This is because 1) the oppurtunities the HYPSM schools offer are simply incomparable and 2) most of the time the HYPSM schools can offer a better financial package than any public school.</p>

<p>One more thing. Duke University (a top private school) offered 22 full scholarships (not just tuition). Only 8 were accepted or about 35%. The ones who denied the scholarship all went to HYPSM. Keep in mind, this is Duke

<a href=“http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2013/05/23/scholarship-yields-reflect-competition”>http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2013/05/23/scholarship-yields-reflect-competition&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>@Shutterstock‌ :</p>

<p>If you look at alumni success numbers, Cal would be at the tail-end of the Ivies/Ivy-equivalents with UMich and UVa (and maybe W&M) a little behind.
If you go by placement in to elite professional schools (med/law/MBA), only HYPS & UPenn–likely driven by Wharton–(and not MIT) send more total numbers than UMich. Add Duke as a school that sends more than Cal as well.
In number of science and engineering PhDs by undergraduate school, Cal is #1, UMich is #3, and Cornell is in the middle (UIUC at #4 send more than MIT at #5). Obviously Cal/UMich/UIUC are much bigger than the privates, but that shows that the cream of the crop at the publics is as numerous as at the lesser Ivies.</p>

<p>You think that HYPSM is worth 100-200K in debt over Cal/UMich/UVa/UIUC CS (or their private school equivalents in achievement: Cornell/Columbia/non-Wharton UPenn/Northwestern/(Rice/JHU))?</p>

<p>If so, I think you completely lack good judgement/business sense and wouldn’t hire you.</p>

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<p>PurpleTitan wrote:

</p>

<p>We can look at the following tables from the common data sets to see if the above statement is truthful and makes sense or not:</p>

<p>MIT 2013-2014:
<a href=“MIT Institutional Research”>MIT Institutional Research;

<pre><code> 25th Percentile 75th Percentile
</code></pre>

<p>SAT Critical Reading 680 770
SAT Math 750 800
SAT Writing 690 780
SAT Essay<br>
ACT Composite 33 35
ACT Math 34 36
ACT English 33 35
ACT Writing 8 10</p>

<p>Percent of first-time, first-year (freshman) students with scores in each range:</p>

<pre><code>SAT Critical Reading SAT Math SAT Writing
</code></pre>

<p>700-800 70.2% 95.2% 72.0%
600-699 26.3% 4.8% 25.1%
500-599 3.1% 0.0% 2.5%
400-499 0.4% 0.0% 0.4%
300-399 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
200-299 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
100% 100% 100%</p>

<pre><code>ACT Composite ACT English ACT Math
</code></pre>

<p>30-36 94.2% 91.7% 98.1%
24-29 5.8% 8.3% 1.9%
18-23 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
12-17 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
6-11 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
Below 6 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
100% 100% 100%</p>

<p>UCB 2013-2014:
<a href=“http://opa.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/UC%20Berkeley%20CDS%202013-14%20(July).pdf[/url]”>http://opa.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/UC%20Berkeley%20CDS%202013-14%20(July).pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<pre><code> 25th Percentile 75th Percentile
</code></pre>

<p>SAT Critical Reading 600 730
SAT Math 650 770
SAT Writing 620 740
SAT Essay 8 10
ACT Composite 27 33
ACT Math 27 34
ACT English 26 31
ACT Writing 26 31</p>

<p>Percent of first-time, first-year (freshman) students with scores in each range:</p>

<pre><code>SAT Critical Reading SAT Math SAT Writing
</code></pre>

<p>700-800 37% 60% 46%
600-699 38% 25% 25%
500-599 18% 11% 14%
400-499 6% 4% 5%
300-399 <1% 0% 0%
200-299 0% 0% 0%
100% 100% 100%</p>

<pre><code>ACT Composite ACT English ACT Math
</code></pre>

<p>30-36 62% 60% 46%
24-29 38% 25% 35%
18-23 10% 13% 7%
12-17 <1% 2% 2%
6-11 0% 0% 0%
Below 6 0% 0% 0%
100% 100% 100%</p>

<p>*** 75th percentile in ACT composite of UCB is only 33, not 34. 25th percentile in ACT composite of MIT is 33. And 75th percentile in ACT composite of MIT is 35. ***</p>

<p>So, the above statement is not truthful.
I let the readers determine if the above statement makes sense.</p>

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<p>@PurpleTitan‌
65% of those accepted with a full scholarship at Duke thought it was worth the debt, so yes I think it would be worth it. The thing is RARELY is it cheaper to go to a public school over a HYPSM anyway. </p>

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<p>@coolweather:</p>

<p>I got the Cal ACT information from here:
<a href=“Student Profile - Office of Undergraduate Admissions”>http://admissions.berkeley.edu/studentprofile&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>@Shuttershock:</p>

<p>“65% of those accepted with a full scholarship at Duke thought it was worth the debt,”</p>

<p>??? What do you mean to say? Full scholarship <em>somewhere</em>else_?</p>

<p>However, they don’t indicate the quality of the school where they got a full-scholarship. So sure, I definitely would recommend Duke at full-pay vs. Tuskegee at full-ride.
However, I would regard someone who turns down a full-tuition scholarship (or even in-state costs) from Cal/UMich/UVa/various-other-state-schools-for-specific-highly-regarded-majors-&-career-paths to take on 100-200K of debt at Duke as someone with insanely poor judgement.</p>

<p>Also,

  1. There are a lot of lemmings with poor judgement in this world (many of them bought houses at the top of the housing market as well).
    <and></and></p>

<p>“so yes I thinbk it would be worth it”</p>

<ol>
<li>You’re a lemming.</li>
</ol>

<p>BTW, this is the blog of a Duke grad: <a href=“http://theivylie.com/”>http://theivylie.com/&lt;/a&gt;
He turned down Yale & MIT as an FYI.</p>

<p>“The thing is RARELY is it cheaper to go to a public school over a HYPSM anyway.”</p>

<p>In which case, they wouldn’t be taking on 100K-200K more in debt to attend HYPSM, would they?
Were we not discussing that specific scenario? You were the one who said “That’s why I believe even 100-200k in debt is well worth it for the right school”, after all.</p>

<p>Obviously, if the cost is the same or close, go with the best school that is a fit.</p>

<p>BTW, it’s not as rare a situation as you seem to think. The upper-middle class (and the upper class, but they have the money to be full-pay) produces a lot of high-achieving kids.</p>

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<p>The only difference between private and public is how the school is funded. This does not have any direct causation on the academic excellence or social life of the school. For large state flagships that accept many students (ie. Mizzou) it is a less ‘intellectual’ atmosphere and sports/partying is much bigger on campus than, for example, MST, another smaller but focused public U in missouri. But Mizzou is just so big you could find anyone there. Many intelligent kids I know have gone to Mizzou on big scholarships. To many people living in Asia UCB and UCLA are the best universities in the world.</p>

<p>For families who have financial struggles but are full-pay at every school (upper middle class families w/o college funds or other financial obligations), it is simply not worth to take on 200k in debt in order to go to a school that is not funded by the government. Probably isn’t worth for anyone unless they have the money to throw around.</p>

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<p>Re: alumni job and career success</p>

<p>Some schools have career surveys that distinguish results by major:
<a href=“University Graduate Career Surveys - #69 by ucbalumnus - Career Opportunities & Internships - College Confidential Forums”>University Graduate Career Surveys - #69 by ucbalumnus - Career Opportunities & Internships - College Confidential Forums;

<p>However, use caution when comparing across schools, since survey and reporting methodology may differ (e.g. mean versus median pay levels, how long after graduation graduates are surveyed, etc.).</p>

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<p>Here’s an elucidating post:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-michigan-ann-arbor/1652900-alumni-representation-undergraduate-only-at-the-top-private-equity-firms.html”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-michigan-ann-arbor/1652900-alumni-representation-undergraduate-only-at-the-top-private-equity-firms.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>In terms of representation at top PE firms (pretty much the pinnacle for dealmakers), Yale actually trails UVa and is just a little better than UMich while Stanford actually trails UMich and is just a little better than Cal.</p>

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<p>Virginia has almost 3X as many undergraduates as Yale.
Michigan has almost 4X as many undergraduates as Stanford.
So the odds of a Yale or Stanford graduate getting a job at one of these firms would appear to be much higher.
We can’t say for sure, based only on these numbers. How many students/alumni from each of these schools actually applied for positions at PE firms? </p>

<p>Undergraduate liberal arts and engineering programs don’t teach deal-making. However, both PE firms and elite colleges happen to attract many smart, high-energy people who are interested in making lots of money. So it would be no surprise to find that relatively many alumni of many of those schools want positions at those firms. Nor would it be too surprising to find that most alumni of a few of those schools just aren’t as interested.</p>

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<p>@tk21769:</p>

<p>Do you even know how to end up in PE? Evidently not.</p>

<p>PE firms don’t hire undergrads. They draw mostly from the pool of investment bankers (maybe some consultants). The better ones.</p>

<p>So these would be heavily McIntire, Ross, and Haas undergrads. If you’re going to play the numbers game, all of them are considerably smaller than Yale/Stanford, etc. Obviously, not all Yale/Stanford grads aim for high finance (though a ton do). However, it does give lie to the assertion that HYPSM-type schools (again, outside of maybe Harvard&Wharton) are such superior options over McIntire/Ross/Haas for a kid interested in high finance that they’re worth going 100-200K in debt for.</p>

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<p>@PurpleTitan‌
Despite the validty of those numbers, you are assuming PE is the end-all for high finance. There are other practices as well, such as VC (Venture Capitalism). I can assure you Stanford will blow every other school out of the water. Certain school have certain strengths, that’s all there’s to it. </p>

<p><a href=“http://b-i.forbesimg.com/truebridge/files/2013/05/Undergraduate-Institutions-of-2013-Midas-Listers1.png”>http://b-i.forbesimg.com/truebridge/files/2013/05/Undergraduate-Institutions-of-2013-Midas-Listers1.png&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Stanford leads the pack, with Harvard fairly close behind. </p>

<p>Also, they’re not hiring Haas/Ross/Stern undergradutes for the positions you think they’re hiring for. A TON of those employees are working back office jobs (IT, acccounting, etc). If you looked at the amount of people (by school) working front-office jobs it’d skew heavily in favor of HYPSM.</p>