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<p>None of the LACs mentioned above has a major emphasis on Greek life. Most have no fraternities/sororities at all; some have a few, but they are not a significant part of campus social life.</p>
<p>Back when I was a Computer Science major (late 1970’s) the difference between a BA and a BS was that the BA students were required to take a foreign language (I see this is still true at some schools like Northeastern) and the BS students needed a little more physical science. I got a BS degree and took a year of Physics and no language.</p>
<p>Since many of the Computer Science and Math classes are the same, I don’t think it makes much of a difference. This is one field where college recruiters will look at the specific course list to make sure that the student has what they consider important. So checking out course lists makes sense.</p>
<p>BTW - Computer Science is not the only degree offered in different flavors - my daughter had the option to get either a BS or BA in Economics (again the main difference being that the BA required a language and the BS more science classes).</p>
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<p>Economics can also come in pre-professional and pre-PhD flavors (whether or not the degree title is BS or BA). Pre-PhD would mean taking many more advanced math and statistics courses (real analysis, calculus-based probability and statistics, etc.). Schools which cater to pre-PhD economics majors may offer or require economics courses with math prerequisites more advanced than frosh calculus.</p>
<p>@kiddie:</p>
<p>It really depends on the school. At my alma mater, both the BS and BA take the same number of CS classes but BS is in Engineering while BA is in lib arts and sciences, so the non-major requirements are different.</p>
<p>However, at some other universities, a BA in CS only has to take about half the CS courses that a BS in a good CS school has to take.</p>
<p>In any case, yes, employers would be more interested in your courselist and transcript than whether you got a BS or BA.</p>
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<p>It does not mean today’s CS students don’t know about these concepts. The difference is these concepts now are introduced in different courses, even in introductory courses, and homework and project asssignments. In the past, students learned about multithread programming but did not really have much chance to write multithread program because the old operating systems and the old computer languages did not support. Today, students have a lot of opportunities to write multithread programs.</p>
<p>The computer technology is changing fast and colleges have to respond to this change. When I was in college, assembly language programming was the weeder class and students had to receive grade B or A to be admitted to CS upper division classes. Now, no college requires assembly language programming because there are lots of other important subjects to learn.</p>
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<p>Joke or not, many people are not able to pass these classes.</p>
<p>The issue is not in getting a BA or a BS but in choosing a school for the major. At UW-Madison the BA or BS degree would be the student’s choice, the foreign language and science credits being the variable- and meeting the reqs for both makes it a tossup (I chose the BA with my Chemistry Honors degree because I liked the white tassel better than yellow).</p>
<p>When choosing schools for computer science one needs to look at the course offerings. I would also pay attention to math department offerings as well. Many jobs are open to math majors as well as comp sci majors. I would want the school to have its own department- a separate building is found at top schools for comp sci. </p>
<p>No student should be frightened by a large school. Big schools have smaller “neighborhoods” within them. A math and/or comp sci major (my son added CS to his math major) will be taking many classes with the same people and enjoying those undergrad activities together (UW offered free pizza at their undergrad meetings). A school with many more of one’s major will offer more chances to be with like minded people. There will be more classes in the major most likely. There will also be as many opportunities to take humanities and social science courses- son took several more of those than required for his degree.</p>
<p>Son chose a job instead of reapplying to grad schools after he overreached (only applied to elite schools in the field with brutal competition). He had minimal CS courses but plenty of math- a plus for employers. He improved his programming skills at one job (a national player in its field) and got recruited by a major player in CS jobs. He was a software developer but now his title is software engineer- jobs don’t use the same nomenclature academics does. Having programming skills seems to be less important than thinking skills- his advanced math may subtly help him (along with his native intelligence).</p>
<p>Your son may want to consider his future goals with computer science. His chances of landing a job with major players such as Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon and the like will be best with the best skills and likely name recognition in the field. It will also mean needing to work where the companies are located. Check the schools to see where their grads got jobs. btw- H and I have found that even a MS in comp sci isn’t the ticket to an intellectually satisfying job or needed (we keep telling son he needs this but research by us is not indicating it is so thus far).</p>
<p>Short answer. Be sure the LAC (btw- Harvard is NOT known for its comp sci department- all elite schools are not tops in all fields) doesn’t exclude the computer science department that can give him the same skills as the top computer science schools.</p>
<p>Regarding grad schools. At this time it doesn’t seem as though grad school is necessary for being challenged intellectually in a comp sci job. Anyone with links we can send to our son with information to the contrary is welcomed.</p>
<p>Another potential problem. Some of the major schools (with good computer science majors) are restricting entry to the major. Your son could get admitted to a school with the intention of majoring in comp sci but find he can’t get the major because of competition for it. UW-Madison (not to be confused with UW-Seattle) still seems to have open admission to that major. It’s a case of supply and demand. Demand has risen hugely without a similar rise in available labs and teaching staff. But consider whether a degree from Podunk-in-the-computing-world will make him competitive for the jobs he may want before choosing an otherwise elite school.</p>
<p>Another thought. At the rate changes/innovations are happening in the comp sci field will a small LAC department be able to keep up as well as the larger schools? Research departments may be more on the cutting edge- a long tenure faculty without doing research may be fine for learning basics but not for the latest in the rapidly changing field. Since most seem to stop with formal education (after a certain level so much can be self taught- one doesn’t rely on college to learn all or even many of the programming languages for example) after the BA/BS degree it isn’t a situation where one counts on grad school for the skills to be competitive.</p>
<p>Reread your original post. Posted then looked up top ten schools so I deleted it. Wisconsin is tied for 11/10 per USNWR, Minnesota isn’t. PM me if you want info on being from the Madison area- I did NOT want to go to UW but it was completely different than being a kid there.</p>
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<p>The common practice for many computer technology folks is to stay with a bachelor’s or to pursue a Masters in CS/engineering if the employer is paying and it’s required to advance to mid/senior technical management positions where MBAs aren’t taken seriously. </p>
<p>Very few go past a masters unless they’re interested in doing higher level research in academia or in a corporate lab. </p>
<p>Extremely helpful. Thank you all. Given what some have said about breadth of CS curriculum being important, any other suggestions for very good CS programs in smallish schools (under 5,000) where the admit rates is above 20%? Anywhere except Southwest and South. Could also be honors program at larger university. </p>
<p>@wis75: Dunno why you want to tell your son that a grad degree is necessary when your own research doesn’t show that to be the case.</p>
<p>IMO, a MS in CS only makes sense for career changers or people who want the network and recruiting opportunities of a name school or if your employer is paying for it.</p>
<p>We value education. He is intellectually gifted and traditionally such students have obtained more than a bachelor’s degree. Knowing that he uses the internet to explore a wide range of intellectual subjects, is a reader and is satisfied thus far with the intellectual stimulation of his job he isn’t in bad shape. We also wonder how he’ll fare in decades to come- if an advanced degree will make a difference. We’ll see if/when he becomes bored with his current life.</p>
<p>PS- finances are not an issue- his or ours. He is very well paid and will inherit our money as well. Plus spending money isn’t as important to him as it is to some. He doesn’t need the prestige of degrees and knowing people with PhDs in STEM fields who have had trouble finding jobs we know a degree isn’t the answer. We’re still reconciling working with continuing with formal education.</p>
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<p>Being well paid without expensive spending habits will likely lead to a strong personal financial situation.</p>
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<p>They need not be mutually exclusive. Some people go to work after a bachelor’s degree, then return to school for PhD study later.</p>
<p>Like in all subjects, there are far more PhD graduates than there are tenure track faculty job openings. But CS PhD graduates have industrial research jobs to seek, unlike PhD graduates in some other subjects.</p>
<p>@wis75:</p>
<p>So far, I haven’t seen you articulate a compelling reason for him to pursue an advanced degree.
What other people “traditionally” do is a poor reason. Whether you value education or not also is a secondary concern (primary one, assuming he’s meeting responsibilities, being what he values). I get the sneaking suspicion that you either want to live vicariously through him or use him for bragging rights. The thing is, people are not stupid. They know when something is more for their benefit or yours. </p>
<p>All I ask is that you be honest with yourself. </p>
<p>We just talked about this again yesterday. Perhaps you are not familiar with education for the sake of education. It is not bragging rights. With his academic giftedness we expected him to spend more time in school. With computers it is a lot easier to remain intellectually engaged than in the past- can find course material online without needing to enroll in a college.</p>
<p>Yes- frugal parents and son. Perhaps we could counter the Koch brothers’ values??? Don’t have even a small fraction of their wealth to do so, sigh. btw- we can be brutally honest. </p>
<p>Realizing the job market for PhDs and where those who teach often end up helps us reconcile going as far as one can educationally with realities. </p>
<p>Yes, we have to be patient and see which path he ends up on in years to come. Hope my disclosures help other parents. With so much high level academic testosterone on this site it can be hard to ease back on things.</p>
<p>PS- it doesn’t matter at all what we parents think, son will do what he wants to, just like his parents before him…</p>
<p>Let’s get back on the OP’s topic. I think we answered the BA/BS question (it doesn’t matter). The big decision for their son will be choosing colleges to apply to. Figuring out a balance between quality of computer science programs and overall fit of campuses. Where to compromise. </p>
<p>Anecdote. A friend was to cover less material teaching a college semester comp sci course than she TA’d in a quarter course at a better school. There can be a huge difference in the caliber of courses between colleges. Keep this in mind when evaluating colleges.</p>
<p>^There are UGs where TAs DO NOT LECTURE at all, if anybody cares.
On a flip side, absolutely any UG is OK for CS, most IT departments hire locally anyway. I have been a CS proffessional (with various titles depending on the place, but the job is basically the same - writing new and updating / maintaining / troubleshooting existing software). I worked across several completely unrelated industries, on several computer platforms, had to learn at every place. One will have to learn at every employment place, so the job requires pro-active type of personality. The best of my training was actually at the CC. I was able to find employement as a Programmer (that was the title at my first job over 30 years ago) and several employers paid for the rest of my education all thru MBA. The rest after CC was basically chasing the papers - 2 more degrees. As I said, got to learn at every single place of employment, it is inevitable. Degrees are valued (nobody ever cared about UG name, and I have worked for the very well known international companies of various sizes and market exposure). I was told many times that my resume stand out not only because of wide range of expriences, great recommnedations, but also because of my MBA, which is rare among CS / IT proffessionals. I do not know why, most companies are paying, that was the only reason I went for it.
So, I would go with the most fitting UG, the one that matches personality and wide range of interest of student.</p>
<p>I do know a kid who scored 2400 one time first try. He is not stopping at BS degree, he is going for a PhD. I can see for some kids, they need more. My kid is not in that category. Know your kid is the best advice.</p>
<p>IT’s different from the elite software shops, however. IT may not care where you went to school. The top software companies won’t care either so long as you have the skills, but they’ll recruit the top CS schools because they believe that they’re more likely to find the talent they’re looking for there.</p>
<p>Different or not or whatever, you are doing the same thing - you are writing new or changing existing computer programs. Back in days, some of us were coming straight from HS, having some programming classes in HS. But since then, HS stopped developing analytical skills alltogether (which is a point for another thread) and most companies (mine does) require 4 year degree for these positions (the position name difference does not tell you much at all, as I said you are doing the same and in vast majority of cases, nobody is writing specs for you, got to work with the users to figure out what is needed to be done). In some cases, like in mine, you got to work with the outside customers and they may be the biggest companies in a world, like all automotive companies. </p>