<p>@MiamiDAP:</p>
<p>You could argue that they’re doing the same thing, just like a Hollywood screenwriter and tech doc writer are doing the same thing; they’re both writing, but the potential upside and respect given would differ between the two, just as they’re different between the two groups of coders.</p>
<p>Software development is not the same as programming. Getting a local job is not the same as working for biggies such as Microsoft, Amazon and Google et al to develop entirely new “products”. A lot more creative thinking is involved. </p>
<p>Huh? post #36- as a TA she covered discussions- helping teach material students were exposed to in lectures, not being the one in charge of course content. Some how things work knowledge implied in my response. Going on to an MBA is not staying in the computer science field- it is switching to the business end. In computer science itself having a masters seems to not always make a difference in the big leagues. We’ll see if my son finds that to move upwards he needs that. It may be his ability and experience move him up. Computer science is one field where you can definitely learn the same material as in a formal course on your own. It may be that formal degrees are needed only to be in teaching at various levels. Somehow I don’t think son seems aimed at the college professor route. Considering where the majority of professors need to live and work for him it may not be the path to go- working with average college students in a less preferred town et al. Most top students at top U’s would never be able to get jobs at their caliber U- too many for too few opportunities (and son is gifted, but there are many even more gifted in math et al than he is from all over the world, his competition).</p>
<p>Software development and programming are the same thing, but the type of work you do, respect (tied to how core off an activity software development is to an organization), difficulty, creativity, learning, network, and more can be quite different between different roles in different organizations that all involve coding. </p>
<p>“Software development is not the same as programming” - ??? - You say what? So, literary writing and writing a novel is not the same thing either then. And respect? Com’n, we are talking about getting a job. And everybdoy can argue forever and realy having no idea what is the subjet of argument, no matter how you look at it, every CS major jsut want to get a job, jobs are very very interesting and challengin absolutely anywere and I can bet that the Medical Insurance software package or medical Records software package is much more complicated that many (most?) out there. The fact remains, the vast majority of CS graduates will be hired by IT departments in various industries, if they are lucky, it will be automotive or automitive supplier. They will be happy anywhere, but the later pay more and job is actually more rewarding dealing with the biggest companies in a world. If they like to develop software a.k.a. WRITE PROGRAMS or torubleshoot them or change them for new requirements, if they enjoy doing it, than they will have fun, if not, no UG top or whtever will make any difference.<br>
Sorry to dissapoint you but it is what it is. And the same goes for any engineering majors, the same idea. UG does not matter, but got to love it, or else…
It is your right to keep on dreaming though…</p>
<p>Miami, there is a fundamental difference between being an engineer who works for a regional elevator installation and repair company, and being an engineer who works for Boeing developing new, never before fabricated components which are stronger, cheaper, and easier to maintain than aluminum or steel. There is a difference between working in the IT department of a hospital troubleshooting billing systems vs working for a tech company which invents new cyber-security technologies based on algorithms that are so sophisticated it can’t be hacked by terrorists or is figuring out how to build a server farm which relies on renewable energy.</p>
<p>You have decided that there is no difference- but that doesn’t make it true. Software development- and the host of other functions at leading edge tech companies- in fact, is not the same thing as the kind of programming which most IT managers do at companies which buy off the shelf tech products. Sorry to disappoint YOU- but you need a big reality check.</p>
<p>There are a large variety of jobs that students with Computer Science degrees can do - these include software development for places like google, installing and supporting tech products at businesses, developing software for banks, etc, supporting hardware and networks at all kinds of places (from schools to big companies to small companies), developing hardware at places like Apple, consulting for large or small companies, hanging up a shingle and doing hardware/software support for individuals, … </p>
<p>The list and variety of jobs is very long. Some of these jobs require different skills - working on a tech help desk requires strong interpersonal skills which developing hardware might not, developing cutting edge software requires more creativity than network support at a small company, …</p>
<p>The key would be to find the right job for your skill set when you graduate.</p>
<p>blossom and kiddie may what I feel. My son’s focus is Machine Learning, and he likes where he is and what his team does. I don’t think he’d feel satisfied doing IT work. He is hard to please.</p>
<p>I was into AI years ago, took lots of classes at UCLA. Is Machine Learning a part of AI? Has it morphed differently from years ago?</p>
<p>Sure, a job is a job just like the folks who design IPhones and the folks who put together IPhones both work jobs, but there is little question who Apple values more.</p>
<p>I’ve worked in IT, as a software developer/engineer at companies where software is their core business, and on the other side as a consumer of IT services, and I can tell you that there is a big difference between working in IT at a company where software isn’t their core business and working on software at a software company.
You evidently don’t know what respect means, so I’ll have to lay it out for you:
If you work in the core part of a business, where software generates revenue for the company (or will), your boss is more likely to understand the value of your work, and so you have higher upside and they care about keeping you happy. If you work in IT at a place where IT is viewed as a cost center, none of that is true. Maybe stuff like job security, upside, politics, learning, being treated well, and the type of work you do doesn’t matter to you. If that’s the case, then yes, feel free to equate working in IT with developing software at a software company.</p>
<p>AI intersects with Machine Learning, but is not the same thing. Machine Learning is currently applied mainly to big data – i.e. finding patterns in voluminous data sets, such as inferring consumer preferences from their web surfing, credit card purchase, etc, habits, for marketing purposes. Machine Learning algorithms use some AI techniques, including Bayesian methods in particular, but “AI” is a broader discipline with many different algorithmic approaches, including inferrential reasoning, neural networks, knowledge-based reasoning, natural language processing, and many others.</p>
<p>As for the distinction between “developer” and “programmer,” I humbly call myself a programmer, though I had a title of “Senior Computer Scientist” at a leader-edge AI firm in the 1980s, and in more recent decades, my work has involved improving on the less-then-optimal algorithms Microsoft, HP, IBM, Oracle, GNU, and other compiler and OS vendors distribute in their system-level products. A skilled programmer can go anywhere and work in any industry; in CS, titles don’t mean much, and certainly working at a brand-name software development company does not imply the highest level of programming skill – indeed, some of the world’s best programmers have chosen to work on public domain, open software projects.</p>
<p>PurpleTitan, yes, clearly companies whose revenue derives directly from software are going to value software skill more than an companies in another business. I have no experience with the latter. But the term “programmer” can be used disparagingly to refer to someone who churns out five lines of mindless COBOL every day or with pride to refer to a highly skilled systems-level architect.</p>
<p>From what I have seen, the terms developer and programmer are used interchangeably.</p>
<p>My anecdotal evidence is that there is no distinction between BA and BS in term of employment prospect. My niece has a BA from the state flagship school. Among her friends, there is a mixture of BA and BS. All of them have multiple offers and all six figures. However, I do not know about graduate school, though.</p>
<p>I am biased about LAC. Years ago, I had a roommate who used to work for Oracle. During the new employee orientation, he met many coworkers who graduated from Ivies. In mine opinion, they got a much more well-rounded education. I think all my engineering friends from my college were too obsessed with pre-professional classes (may be, it was just the people I hanged out with). I would definitely go with a more liberal art oriented school.</p>
<p>Lastly, I think the CS employment is a bit “bubbly”. At the parent orientation a couple of weeks ago, a mom told me that her D’s cousin just graduated (UG) from my alma mater. It was not surprising to me that the kid landed a six figure job. What is shocking is the fact he got a 70k signing bonus. That is just wow! </p>
<p>As with colleges, jobs must fit the person. Saying the only job worth having in computer science is " being a software developer/engineer at a company where software is their core business" is like saying the only college worth going to is XXX (substitute whatever college name you want here). </p>
<p>You can have a successful and happy life attending the college that fits you and the same applies to finding a job that fits you. Some people want the excitement of a start-up, some want the fulfillment of a non-profit, some need to work with children, etc. People do best at a job where their skill sets fit best (as I stated before things like creativity, interpersonal skills, etc.).</p>
<p>My son did some IT work when he was in high school. He knew he wanted to do stuff he considered more interesting.after college.</p>
<p>@kiddie, I did not see anyone say that the only job worth having is coding at a shop who’s main business is software. I did see many say that there is a qualitative difference between that type of job and working in IT. Which is true. </p>
<p>BTW, a good friend of mine has had a quite rewarding career (financially, anyway) spent solely in IT (he is and has been CTO, Chief Security Officer, etc. and founded an IT consulting firm), but the work he does and the people he deals with are quite different than what a software engineer at Google does and deals with.</p>