Difference in Degrees... 2 yr Associate Electronics Degree.. vs a 4 yr program Bachelors degree?

College Search & Selection
21

MyOs1634 said : He should write the “personal statement”. If neither you nor your spouse went to college, he should indicate so. If his high school is lower-performing, with few students going on to 4-year universities, he should mention it and how his path differs from the “typical” student at his school. Erie is the “alternate” campus of choice for strong engineering applicants.

What is this Personal statement you speak of… not sure what you mean?? Husband went to a “certificate college” for computers before we got married… that was the extent to his college education… not sure our high school is that bad… MANY go on to 4 yr colleges… in this day & age… you have to ! it’s more like… if you don’t… what do you plan to do with your life… you would be more the odd ball to NOT be going to a college.

Sometimes I wish life was more simple for us all.

22

Mom2collegekids said: **How much are you spending on son #2’s school each year?

None of the publics schools are “for profit” and many privates aren’t either. Since you all are confused, maybe just list the schools that are being considered and we’ll tell you “yes” or “no”.

And if you provide stats and home state (assuming it’s NY), we’ll help with more schools.**

it sounds Geneva will cost about $3,000 a year for us out of pocket …plus Books… whatever the extra’s are…when I seen the different between Pitt and Geneva, I literally had to call both schools to explain this to me… because I felt Geneva couldn’t be right , what’s the catch…as really their price tag was a little higher over Pitt even ! I learned this means virtually nothing when college shopping… (blunder with 1st son- I bet he could have had a Geneva education too!.. but we never considered applying due to sticker shock)

Another consideration was **New Castle School of Trades **… Far less glorious over PTI… way smaller… he’d have to commute daily… haven’t applied…

  1. He is accepted to **Slippery Rock** -though they do not really carry what he wants to do.. ..
  2. Not sure **Geneva **was sent the Transcripts yet (I need to call) ....
  3. He is bulking about **Grove City** about writing that essay .... we hear so many good things.. so people tell me they are priced reasonably for an Engineering college (not far from home either).... not sure if they meet merit need- having a reputation for this ??
  4. Applied to **Penn State ** today but I expect it to be too expensive.....
  5. PTI is pretty much OUT of the question now...(estimate & what I have learned here )...
23

Speaking of that article on FOR PROFIT Colleges… just some things that stuck out…

  1. A report by the Government Accountability Office (GAO) documented misleading sales and marketing tactics used by several for-profits.[77][78][79] Critics have also pointed out that more than half of for-profits' revenues are either spent on marketing or extracted as profits, with less than half spent on instruction.
  2. According to the Harkin Commission and the NY Times "students at for-profit colleges make up 13 percent of the nation’s college enrollment, but account for about 47 percent of the defaults on loans. About 96 percent of students at for-profit schools take out loans, compared with about 13 percent at community colleges and 48 percent at four-year public universities." [44] [45] A 2014 report by The Institute for College Access and Success shows that the likelihood of a student defaulting is three times more likely at a for-profit college than a 4-year public or non-profit college and almost four times more likely than a community college.
  3. Most for-profit colleges charge enrollees much higher tuition rates than analogous programs at community colleges and state public universities despite credits being likely not eligible to be transferred to other institutions.[84] In fact, 96% of students attending for-profit college apply for federal student loans compared to 13% at community colleges. During the 2009-2010 school years, for-profit colleges received almost $32 billion in grants and loans provided to students under federal student aid programs.[85] This staggering number means nearly all students at for-profit institutions acquire student loan debt, even when they do not earn the end product of a degree or accumulate increased earning power through their studies (Sessions, 2011). These statistics represent a large portion of for- profits, uncovering the serious need for greater accountability in ensuring students are making sound investments in such institutions.
  4. Examples of misconduct include:
  • offering commissions to admissions officers,
  • employing deceptive marketing tactics by refusing to disclose total tuition cost to prospective students before signing a binding agreement,
  • lying about accreditation,
  • encouraging outright fraud by enticing students to take out student loans even when the applicant had $250,000 in savings,
  • promising extravagant, unlikely high pay to students,
  • failing to disclose graduation rate, and offering tuition cost equivalent to 9 months of credit hours per year, when total program length was 12 months.
  1. It was found that 14 out of 15 times, the tuition at a for-profit sample was more expensive than its public counterpart, and 11 out of 15 times, it was more expensive than the private counterpart. Examples of the disparity in full tuition per program include: $14,000 for a certificate at the for-profit institution, when the same diploma cost $500 at a public college; $38,000 for an Associate's at the for-profit institution, when the comparable program at the public college cost $5,000; $61,000 for a Bachelor's at the for-profit institution, compared to $36,000 for the same degree at the public college.

So the offering commission to Admissions counselors…I guess I have wondered about that…is this a NO No - when dealing with a non-profit reputable college ? (just curious)…

24

I’ve never heard of a non-profit school offering a “bounty” for student applications.

25

A personal anecdote:

My S had extremely high stats (straight As, 800 on Verbal SAT, 5s on all of his AP tests, etc). Top 15 in his class. Did not seem interested in the college application process. Applied to Pitt engineering and was accepted by October of senior year–he was done.

Went away and did horribly. Too much gaming, sleeping, whatever–his heart wasn’t in it. He finished out the year but said he was done. He’d been thinking about it and realized what he wanted was hands-on learning and not theoretical. We looked around and saw a lot of for-profit schools that taught what he wanted to do. I knew enough to stay away from them.

We also briefly considered apprenticeship programs, but they seem more geared for electricians and welders and that is not what he wanted. Also seemed difficult to get without knowing someone to recommend you.

We found Pennsylvania College of Technology. It is affiliated with Penn State and they offer anything from certificates to 4 year degrees. You can live on campus, they are DivIII, they have clubs and even Greek life. Lots of kids go to become PAs, there is also a culinary school, nursing, forestry, IT, etc. Anyway, he is getting 2 Associate’s in 3 years in 2 fields of study he is excited about. He is happy. He did an internship (required) in his field last summer, got paid, worked hard, and can’t wait to go back. The company has already invited him back for next summer and flat out wrote that they’d love to have on on the team when he graduates.

The school has multiple job fairs every year and has job placement (in my S’s dept) in the upper 90th %ile.

Admittedly it was hard to let go of the traditional 4 year college dream. This is not what I saw for him, or hoped for him. It gets easier, though, watching him excited and happy to go to school doing something he likes.

https://www.pct.edu/

26

^ Great result at the end and it’s good there are options like that…

27

I was going to suggest PA College of Technology! Great story @Bearpanther :slight_smile: Congratulations to your son.

To increase his odds at Penn State Erie, he needs to complete the “optional” statement, the last thing before he submits his application. A short resume will do, an essay is good too (can be about why he loves building things and understanding how they work). He can indicate “Altoona” for a branch campus and accept the option of summer school (cuts down on potential summer earnings, BUT he takes required classes anyway, which means he can take only 4 classes in the Fall and graduate on time, AND he can get a headstart on job hunting in Altoona/Erie while most students are gone…)

@OverrunMama: for engineering, you must verify that the degree is ABET accredited. (ABET is the engineering certification board, all programs that are ABET accredited are considered equally and will result in hiring for engineering positions. A non-ABET accredited program is iffier as some industries and most government contractors won’t hire someone whose degree isn’t ABET -accredited).
For instance:
https://psbehrend.psu.edu/news-events/news/engineering-programs-earn-reaccreditation

Grove City isn’t like Geneva. Grove City is an evangelical college for students who want to grow in their faith. The non-evangelical students, Catholic students, and international students who didn’t realize what the college’s mission was, all really disliked the school - despite its excellent academics. The international students reported many “opportunities for sharing Christ” where they were made to feel bad they weren’t Christian and/or encouraged to convert and/or others prayed they’d “find God”. The Catholic students said they were told they weren’t real Christian or were criticized for the practice of infant baptism. I do know one student who absolutely LOVED it, but she’d grown up “in a church”, going to Bible camps, praying and reading the Bible twice a day, attending Bible study, worship service, church choir, etc, most days of the week. All, however, agreed it isn’t as “dry” as it says it is, and that plenty of partying goes on as long as no one’s caught. So, if your son feels he can’t write that essay about his faith, I wouldn’t push him into writing it, especially if it is not heartfelt.

28

Bearpanter said: **We found Pennsylvania College of Technology. It is affiliated with Penn State and they offer anything from certificates to 4 year degrees. ** thank you for sharing about your very intelligent son’s experience … and how what we THINK will work out fine… sometimes we just don’t know… sounds he found his niche and is doing wonderful ! Good for him !

I never heard of this “PA college of Technology”… where is this located?? … I take it it’s not a “for profit” college… even though I would have assumed this -after reading this thread …

29

MyOS1634 said: for engineering, you must verify that the degree is ABET accredited. (ABET is the engineering certification board, all programs that are ABET accredited are considered equally and will result in hiring for engineering positions. A non-ABET accredited program is iffier as some industries and most government contractors won’t hire someone whose degree isn’t ABET -accredited).

Yes… we have been told this. thank you for pointing it out again… and with a link to boot… Geneva’s Engineering degrees are ABET accredited , I was told.

I am not sure if son #3 did the " optional" statement" before he submit his Penn State application… I am thinking probably not… if it was optional… that is.

What you said about Grove City… I think he will feel it’s too religious saturated for him… Again, he’s not a partier in any way…(all that is a plus as far as colleges go why he won’t mind Geneva)… but if everyone is trying to make him feel bad if he doesn’t conform to their brand of beliefs… well. this wouldn’t be going over well with him… He also enjoys"devious" rock music that strict Christians would much frown upon.

30

PA College of Tech is related to Penn State, therefore not a for-profit institution. It’s in Williamsport PA

https://www.pct.edu

31

PA College of Tech is an educational institution within the Penn State system, therefore: for education, not for profit. :slight_smile:

As a guideline: for-profit programs are NOT ABET-accredited. If a degree is ABET-accredited, you’re safe.

Sounds like Grove City wouldn’t be a good fit.
But there are lots of other colleges that could be!

It’s too bad your son thought “optional” meant 'don’t do it" (Between one boy with a 3.4 GPA and a 23 ACT, and one boy with a 3.4 GPA, a 23 ACT, and a thoughtful essay, which one do you think gets in? For your other children, remember to tell them this: “optional” only means it’s a test of an applicant’s thoroughness and interest; adcoms think “if you don’t show this minimum commitment to applying, you make our job easier”. If your son is borderline or equal to someone who did the essay, the one with the essay will get preference. ALWAYS do the “optional statement” when it’s offered since that’s what it may come down to. ) Did he check he’d accept “summer session”? Did he check Altoona as an alternate? Ask him since doing those things will get him bonus points, and if he didn’t, same thing as before, between one who did check and one who didn’t, priority goes to the one who checked.

Here’s a list of colleges where your son can apply and have a shot of getting admitted to the Engineering program - beside Geneva and Penn State Erie, of course.
All links follow this double format: 1° accredited for what type of engineering and 2° university’s website.Note that “Engineering” is better than “Engineering technology”. “Engineering technology” graduates technicians who’ll work for engineers. Salaries and career potential are much better with “engineering” than “engineering technology”, which can be used as a “fallback” career.

YORK (private, science-focused)
http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=734&ProgramIDs=
http://www.ycp.edu/

ELIZABETHTOWN (great college, nurturing, friendly - go visit :p)
http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=1052&ProgramIDs=
http://www.etown.edu/

GANNON (Catholic college)
http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=382&ProgramIDs=
http://www.gannon.edu/

MESSIAH (Conservative Protestant college)
http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=516&ProgramIDs=
http://www.messiah.edu/site/index.php

MILLERSVILLE (public/PASSHE - computer science, not engineering per se)
http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=523&ProgramIDs=
http://www.millersville.edu/

SLIPPERY ROCK (public/PASSEH - computer science, information technology, but no “pure” engineering)
http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=937&ProgramIDs=
http://www.sru.edu/

TEMPLE (public/state-related; “fly in four” promise to help students graduate in 4 years + rewards select lower income students with extra scholarships so that they don’t have to work; many engineering programs to choose from!)
http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=338&ProgramIDs=
http://www.temple.edu/

USCRANTON (Catholic; very rigorous academically, excellent reputation in all of Northeast)
http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=99&ProgramIDs=
http://www.scranton.edu/

WIDENER (private, non religious. Good selection of engineering majors)
http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=155&ProgramIDs=
http://www.widener.edu/

WILKES (private, good variety of engineering programs, campus in Arizona.)
http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=156&ProgramIDs=
http://www.wilkes.edu/

32

@OverRunMama rather than bolding quote you can actually quote people using this method:
[ quote]Whatever they said[ /quote]
Just remove the spaces after the square brackets.

33

<<<
Pennsylvania College of Technology. It
<<<

Run the NPC…PA publics tend to be lousy with aid.

34

[QUOTE=""]
3rd son's GPA will get him the $10,000 scholarship they offer.. (just as 2nd son got it)... his GPA is 3.4 or higher.. SAT scores 490 reading 610 Math 450 writing...

[/QUOTE]

ACT English 22… Math 26,…Reading 19…Science 24… SCORE 23 …


[QUOTE=""]

[/QUOTE]

It seems like the school that 2nd son is attending will likely be the most affordable choice since they offer that $10k awad, and give need based aid as well.

What does that school’s NPC show when 2 are in college?

35

MYOS1634 …I really appreciate you taking the time to give me this long list with your personal touch of info on the college(s)…

Yes I know it’s not a good thing that he isn’t jumping to do more - when they see something optional… he is not home tonight but in band doing a festival, he is the Snare Caption… maybe he did fill it out… I am not really sure…

What’s funny about all of this is… I am the one who never went to college but I am more of the detailed Diva - who would be sure to do these things … I can be very critical on myself thinking I didn’t do enough… I have to be perfect… I have to be the best… because otherwise I will blame myself when I don’t get in or get the job…etc… and I DO speak to them like this…

though for me… I was so bad at Math, didn’t go to college at all…met my husband at 15… but things worked out good for us… I can’t complain… but our kids… they all hate to read … this drives me bonkers !!..you have no idea… I have a library at our house… I am the most avid reader of them all… in fact I think my harping on them has turned them against reading… (they have said this to me!)

Could they have done better in school… Yes… they have the potential… Maybe it’s my fault… I don’t know… But of course those who put more effort into anything… they should be considered 1st - absolutely ! This son is more of a “hands on type”… he is introverted… more on the quiet side…

While at an amusement park in the line waiting for a roller coaster (an hour wait) , trying to make conversation with him… I ask him what he thinks about when standing there… he replies… his mind is always thinking on how something works - the mechanics behind it … while he is looking closely at how the roller coaster gears, hydraulics were operating at the end of the track… that’s his thing.

But Yes… he hates doing essays… sees them as a complete waste of time, energy… (this is how he talks)… he would rather skip all the English classes, religious classes… but what can you do… that’s part of the package…

I can say this… my husband was awful at English in high school… his worst subject… but he was great in Math… (we are complete opposites) …It just seems they got some of their dad in there… it is what it is…

36

… Net price calculator you mean … I did this the other day but I didn’t understand how to read the results… . they had it calculated he would get $20,000 in aid… the cost of the college is like $36,000 or so… so there is $17,000 left … some of that will be in loans in his name… I didn’t see where it stated what WE as the parents would be responsible for… in that $20,000 was pell & state grants as I recall.

I talked to the Admissions counselor yesterday, he is accepted & they even raised the scholarship to $12,000 this year (but so the price went up too… so it all evens out)…

37

I just did that calculator page again. … I think the 1st time I put in his name… this time I put in mine… it seems to give a choice… Estimated total cost is $37,900 (Tuition, Room & Board, fees ,books & other )

It has the Alumni Scholarship at $12,000, state grants at $4,000 , other estimated Gift aid at $1,200 = $17,200

Estimated Direct cost = $18,500… and Estimated Net Price = $20,700 …

How do I interpret this… as it’s not listing Loans , and it also didn’t list another Grant the school gave to #2nd son this year & a specific scholarship -which I was told both of those were based on “need” - when I asked about them…

Maybe they just don’t list all of this… until you get the official award letter in the mail… . or maybe they did away with those things - by raising the other $2,000 ?? …

The $12,000 is all about GPA though… if they do not keep their grades above that 3.0… they will loose it the next year. …the others I was told is purely based on Need… not grades…

38

[QUOTE=""]
I did this the other day but I didn't understand how to read the results.. . they had it calculated he would get $20,000 in aid.. the cost of the college is like $36,000 or so... so there is $17,000 left .. some of that will be in loans in his name.. I didn't see where it stated what WE as the parents would be responsible for.. in that $20,000 was pell & state grants as I recall. <<<

[/QUOTE]

$12k of scholarship
?? of Pell Grant <= how much

?? state grant <= how much

So this totals $20k

$17000 subtotal

$ 5500 loan

$11500 “family responsibility”…but there may be some wiggle room with indirect costs.

Since it sounds like you can’t pay that AND pay for S2’s amount, I would tell both both boys that next summer they have work/earn/save several thousand dollars to pay towards that.

Is work study a possibility?

The family is supposed to cover whatever is left.



Geneva
Tuition and fees                   $25,450<br>
Room and board                        $9,630
Books and supplies                    $900  <====  buying used or renting books can see some savings.
Estimated personal expenses       $1,150 <==== This will vary ...and can be your son's responsibility

<h2>Transportation expenses                  $140   </h2>

Estimated Total                     $37,270
39

I’m not complaining here. but I just don’t understand … this year for 2nd son … all we need to come up with is $3,332 so if /when we have (2) in college …and these come out saying over $11,000 EACH…

What in the world went wrong !@#$

Can you see why basically nothing makes sense to me…

40

One plus… if it’s not affordable to us… they can drive there together (no room & board… no meals to pay for) … it’s only about 25 minutes away… the winter will be rough… but it’s an option… Just have to get them a Car !