<p>sally305 suggested that I start a new thread on this topic, as a follow-up to a discussion on another thread.</p>
<p>Several posters on the "crapshoot" thread in the College Admissions forum have suggested that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton (and other top schools) are looking for different features in an application. I am curious about the specific differences that other parents see in admissions practices at these schools, if you think they are different.</p>
<p>Just for the record, this subject is not particularly interesting to me–I only suggested you start a new thread if you didn’t find existing threads that covered the same topic, which I do believe exist. Your question was likely to get lost in the crapshoot one.</p>
<p>Right, it was other posters who mentioned the differences. I was just attributing to sally305 the suggestion to start a thread, and not necessarily interest in the topic. :)</p>
<p>Probably the title of the thread should have a question mark after it, but I can’t seem to change that by editing.</p>
<p>Also, if anyone can provide a link to the existing threads, I would be interested in that–I am not sure what to search for, to narrow it down to differences in admissions desiderata.</p>
<p>A related issue is that, are there statistically significant differences in HYP applicants’ characteristics? One cannot reliably assess institutional admission differences without some understanding of their applicants’ differences.</p>
<p>What I like about this thread is that too many people group the “Ivies” as if they are one school. Each school has it’s own personality and philosophy so they are looking for different things aside from high GPA and test scores. Our high school does very well with Yale and Harvard but has never gotten anyone into Princeton. We are not a Princeton type of town. I won’t get into specifics because I think it might sound too hostile, but we’re just don’t “grow kids” for Princeton in my town.</p>
<p>I think this is a fool’s errand. Even assuming there are subtle differences in admissions preferences, those differences are likely to be dynamic, changing over time, and would be very difficult to discern without a lot of comparative data about admitted classes, not enrolled classes. The enrolled class data will reflect, to some significant extent, the preferences of the students admitted, not of the administrators who make admissions decisions. </p>
<p>I, too, have a sense of what Princeton is looking for, and Harvard, and Yale. But it is largely based on anecdotal evidence, much of which is over a decade old at this point. I know from experience that people who live in communities very similar to mine can have diametrically different senses of which kids which college is likely to admit. I also know that admission practices HAVE changed in the past few years, and are likely to change again in the next few years. Finally, even assuming the colleges really look for different things in applicants, I don’t think anyone could possibly deny that there is a huge area of common interest and values among all three colleges, and that many of the kids they are looking for are, in fact, the same kids. So any differences will only show up at the edges.</p>
<p>If you’re seriously interested in investigating this, I suggest you look at rates of attendance for these schools at a range of independent day or boarding schools, which you might be able to get from these schools websites.</p>
<p>These private schools’ “personalities” can be gleaned from their mission statements, curricula, and student activities. These qualities, in turn, might give you a clue as to what makes their alumni attractive to certain types of colleges or universities.</p>
<p>Two other factor to consider are the relationship between the admissions office and each high school… plus, legacies.</p>
<p>Bear in mind, attendance is not the same as rate of acceptance.</p>
<p>I would think that the applicants somewhat self-select, making the admissions process different for each school. For instance, if a student is very interested in studying Biology, they’re much more likely to apply to Stanford and/or Harvard than they are to apply to Princeton.</p>
<p>I don’t believe there are any detectable differences, with the exception that Harvard (at least) acknowledges that it gives a tip to Boston-area kids. I don’t know if Y and P do that for their local high schools, openly or otherwise.</p>
<p>I’m convinced they do. Princeton has over 3 times as many New Jersey kids as Yale does. Yes, part of that is the desire on the part of some kids to stay local and part is the impact of frat brat admissions. Still that’s a whopping difference. Yale has twice as many kids from Connecticut as Princeton does. Harvard has always been upfront about the fact that the easiest place in the planet to be from to get into H is a Boston public school.</p>
<p>What you are really saying is that they are exactly the same in this respect. All of them favor local students somewhat (and all of them favor the children of faculty and administrators, who all happen to be local students, too). </p>
<p>This is where we trot out, too, that they all supposedly have a preference for children of their own alumni. But Harvard’s numbers show that children of Yale and Princeton alumni are accepted at Harvard at almost the same rate as children of Harvard alumni. And I would be surprised if the equivalent statement about either of the other colleges weren’t true.</p>
<p>I would say math/physics stars find it easier to get into Yale than Harvard considering the latter has like 30 people in the top 60 of the Putnam.</p>
<p>Don’t see it as a fool’s errand, but a far more complex thing to peg- and unscientific. I am utterly convinced certain schools do seek out certain “types.” Or at least, patterns in their strengths and maturities.</p>
<p>But, even hearing my name being called, it’s not worth the arguments that will ensue. It’s not idle forum talk. Needs a dinner invite, so we can talk. :)</p>
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<p>I think that there is merit in this idea. My son’s non-academic interest was singing and it was good enough to get him accepted at a number of very good music schools/departments. It seemed that Yale would be the perfect place for him with all its a cappella groups and music grad school. But he was denied at Yale and accepted at Harvard. Some people have suggested that because Harvard is not considered much of a music school, that it looks for good music applicants to keep its EC music groups active. He also had demonstrable interest in his intended atypical major, so that probably helped too.</p>
<p>I only know a handful of kids who applied to more than one of these schools - as far as I could tell there was no rhyme or reason to who got accepted where. The real stars got accepted at more than one though. :)</p>
<p>A friend had his heart set on Yale for MANY years. Then there was the “massacre” among CC applicants in 2005. I showed this young man the comments. we also discussed his interests and studied the colleges’ websites. He applied EA to P and spent 4 very happy years there. He often said he could not imagine being happier elsewhere. </p>
<p>I do believe he was first from our area to be accepted there. He also was Presidential Student, 2400, etc. Very nice young man.</p>
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<p>I think all three give some local preference–and as JHS says, that makes them alike, not different. Some of what appears to be a geographic preference may also be a preference for children of the school’s own faculty and administrators, who are typically local residents. And some may be a geographic expression of a legacy preference: you’ll probably find a higher percentage of Harvard alums around Boston, and a higher percentage of Princeton alums in New Jersey.</p>
<p>But a lot of the geographic disparity is just self-selection on the part of applicants, We don’t have detailed statistics on who applied from where, but the College Board does tell us annually how many college-bound seniors from each state sent SAT score reports (SAT I or SAT II, or both) to the 50 or so most popular schools for that state, which should be a pretty good proxy for applications from SAT-dominant states (as Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Jersey are).</p>
<p>In 2012, the top Ivies for Massachusetts kids were Harvard (2,513 = 5.2% of score senders), Brown (2,384 = 5.0%), Cornell (1,832 = 3.8%), and Dartmouth (1,623 = 3.4% of score senders). Yale and Princeton didn’t make the top 50, so their number had to be less than 1,522, or < 3.2% of score senders. Notice also that’s a pretty steep drop-off from Harvard to Dartmouth.</p>
<p>That same year, Connecticut kids reciprocated. Their top Ivies were Yale (1,075 = 4.0% of score senders), Cornell (1,065 = 3.9%), Brown (1,061 = 3.9%), Columbia (796 = 3.0%), Penn (793 = 3.0%), Dartmouth (786 = 2.9%), and Harvard (765 = 2.8% of score senders). Princeton didn’t make the top 50, so the number had to be less than 765 (<2.8% of score senders)</p>
<p>As for New Jersey kids, they overwhelmingly preferred Cornell (3,442 = 5.4% of score senders), Penn (3,342 = 5.2% of score senders), and Princeton (3,210 = 5.0% of score senders), with Columbia some distance back (2,624 = 4.1%). Yale and Harvard didn’t make their top 50, so the numbers had to be less than 1,989 (< 3.1% of score senders).</p>
<p>Many people on CC are accustomed to talking about college admissions as a single national market. In fact, the Ivies get far more applicants from the Northeast than from any other region, and even within the Northeast, there are strong differences in local and regional preferences.</p>
<p>Finally, given that there are apparently substantial geographical differences in where kids apply, there might also be geographical differences in yield, so that a Massachusetts kid who is cross-admitted to H, Y, and P may be statistically more likely to choose H, and so on. (I know H trumps everyone on yield, but the suggestion is that the cross-admits from Massachusetts might be 80% or 85% likely to attend H, while the cross-admits from New Jersey might be only 65% likely to attend H). But the more important factor is probably who applies where.</p>
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<p>While it might not have been better in 2005, my recollection is that the Yale massacre in the world of CC was for the HS Class of 2004 (Yale Class of 2008) and that it was mostly in the early round when Yale drastically reduced its “bonus” admission rate. Fwiw, many of the “massacred” went on to very successful academic careers at Harvard, Princeton, Berkeley, and Stanford (via some stops at Brown, Smith, or Duke.)</p>
<p>One difference: among the three, Harvard seems somewhat more committed to SES diversity. Its track record is not stellar here, but 15% of its undergrads are Pell grant recipients, compared to 12% at Yale and 10% at Princeton.</p>
<p>For comparison purposes, among top 25 privates, Emory is at 21%, MIT 19%, Chicago 18%, Columbia 16%. USC 16%, Cornell 15%, Rice 15%, Stanford 15%, Carnegie Mellon 14%, Dartmouth 14%, Brown 13%, Duke 13%, Penn 13%, Georgetown 12%, Northwestern 12%, Notre Dame 12%, Vanderbilt 12%, Johns Hopkins 9%, WUSTL 7%, Caltech 6%. So for their peer group, Harvard is about average or slightly above, Yale below average, and Princeton in the bottom quartile.</p>
<p>Or . . . among the three, Harvard is a local option for the greatest number of Pell-grant-eligible students. I know Princeton gets few low-income students from Philadelphia, even though they could get there in an hour or so on public transportation. To many of them, Princeton, NJ just seems like a place they don’t belong. (And I would add, based on my possibly outdated anecdotal information, that Princeton does not do a heck of a lot to encourage them, or necessarily accept them when they apply. My daughter had two close friends, one of them Pell Grant eligible, who were accepted everywhere, including Harvard (EA), Yale, Stanford, MIT, Penn, and Columbia, except both were rejected at Princeton.) There aren’t many low-income students who feel like Princeton is near home. Yale had New Haven and Bridgeport, and Hartford not far away, but all of that together is about 1 million people. There are many, many more low-income kids who can get to Harvard from their homes on the T. </p>
<p>I note that the top five colleges in bclintonk’s list are similarly located smack in the middle of a major metropolitan area.</p>