@LMK5 - As to the question of “…is the journey at the elite private worth $168k more per child than a state school in the national top 50?,” the answer is: It depends. How much of a family’s overall portfolio and income stream does $168K represent? How will it affect the parent’s retirement plans, how many children will be going to college? What type of educational experience is that student looking for and what are the ultimate goals?
You are correct in prefacing the question with “in my case.” Only you can answer that question for yourself and for your student. In our case, it was. And we have not regretted it for a second – even as we write the tuition checks. Nobody needs to sell anything to anybody. But everyone does need to shop for what best suits their needs and budget.
@socaldad2002 I think the answer lies outside of CC — which is that in the real world, most full payers do not even choose a private elite education. They just don’t. Do the math. Most of my colleagues - and they are making high 6 to low 7 figures - send their kids to one of the local flagships. That’s the real world outside of CC. It’s actually quite nice living in a location where parents aren’t obsessed with prestige and feel confident that their kids will be successful as graduates of the local flagships.
(And btw, there are international students at colleges all over the country and not just a select few … and in significant numbers. An elite college is not the only “full college experience.”)
LovetheBard (I have no idea how to make it an “@” link) Well said. I’m just curious as to how those who write the big check arrive at their conclusion. Fascinating.
I have seen academic studies referenced that showed that students of similar stat levels tended to perform similarly regardless of where they attended college. You can think of an example being a top private vs. a public honors college graduate. However, the demand for prestige and/or the fear of not giving your kid every possible advantage usually leads to comparatively high yield rates at top ranked schools (these yield rates drop off pretty quickly). So you could argue that, given the unsustainable cost increases and levels of debt in higher education, perhaps more should turn down full-pay private prestige colleges. That doesn’t seem to happen much with top students these days, though.
I can see the benefit of prestige colleges in some areas. If you want to major in liberal arts but work on Wall Street or do consulting with a top level firm, it helps to be at a school where you have a chance of being recruited. And you may make that connection that pays off at a school with lots of affluent students. For many top students, though, I’m not sure there is a value add that is specifically attributable to the school.
Even among those who do prefer to choose private elite education, most of them (or their kids, if referring to parents) do not get admitted to such. In other words, very few even have that choice to consider.
Our process was pretty simple. We asked our kid to work hard in HS and get the best scores and ECs he could. We asked him to apply to a range of schools that matched what he was interested in (academically and socially). We showed him how much money was in 529s (parents and grandparents) and said he would need to work within those limits. His/our goal was to get the best overall college experience and come out with ZERO debt. Done. Will use same process with daughter in a couple of years.
@LMK5 - The “@” link is simple. You type @NAMEOFPERSON. The advantage to doing that is that the the tagged person, in this case NAMEOFPERSON, will be notified that someone referenced him/her in their post, so he/she will know to look at it (or not).
Case Western’s med school is a highly ranked program and very selective. Think 3% or less. A portion of the admits (32 out of 217) are part of the “college program”, Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine. They receive a full scholarship that covers full tuition and fees.
There is no such thing as an admission “safety” to med school. Even your average in state option is typically highly selective. A reach for any applicant. If your in state public is a reach, then CCLCM is a super reach. Total long shot odds no matter who you and what you done I guess.
How much of a boost, if any, does attending a top ranked school give an applicant to a program like CCLCM? Looking at the make up of their incoming class, on one hand they came from 89 different schools, the majority of which aren’t highly selective. On the other hand, the schools most represented are Case Western (16), Michigan (15), and Berkeley (14). Then UCLA, Duke, Harvard, Ohio State, WUSTL, Penn, Stanford, Chicago, UCD, and Notre Dame (4 to 7).
Apologies for another pre med spin on this. Personal to DS who is fortunate to have guaranteed admission in-state, so he does have a safety so to speak, but may want to take a shot and “super reach” for a program like this. And I’m curious if has disadvantaged himself at all for it by taking the full ride.
@LOUKYDAD I respectfully disagree with your approach. If you use the US News rankings, Case is #25 for research and #39 for primary care. Looking at just one med school’s matriculation numbers is unfair. You have no way of knowing how many students from any college got into higher ranked programs. Moreover, by the time they get to medical school, some students have geographic constraints–often involving significant others. I would expect Case’s class to be made up of a higher number of people who attended college in the Midwest than the class at UMass. (#46 research and #14 in primary care.)
UMass seems to give a preference in admissions to Mass residents. Its list of top 10 undergraduate institutions represented in the most recent class posted is
Boston College
Boston University
Brandeis University
Cornell University
Dartmouth College
Harvard University
Northeastern University
Tufts University
University of California at Los Angeles
University of Massachusetts
Yes, getting into any accredited US medical school is an accomplishment; that’s undoubtedly true. However, you can’t just look at one med school’s data and extrapolate much from it.
Following this thread, I see one downside of going to an elite private college - you’re likely to be forever judged and evaluated more strictly, and you will likely have bosses or coworkers who will privately or publicly gloat that they didn’t go to a top school but still ended up at a comparable or higher job level.
@yucca10 I don’t know about that. I suppose experiences vary widely, but anyone who would gloat that way isn’t worth the time of day. And going to an elite private college certainly hasn’t been any kind of drawback for me. I’m in journalism, and my alma mater, Northwestern, is the No. 1 undergrad institution for the discipline. Grads of Missouri or Syracuse might quibble, but they’re wrong. I’ve never felt excessively judged or held to inappropriate standards due to my education—it just gave me a great grounding and a great network, besides the usual college fun and lifelong friends.
My D19 just got confirmation that she’s going to her first choice, Parsons, with a merit scholarship of $24,000 a year—about half of tuition. While we’re certainly happy to save the money, we’re more excited about the recognition of her talents and potential. The award is at the top of the school’s merit scale. And we’re not at all hung up on the New School being ranked in the 150s in USNWR, since Parsons is often No. 1 and rarely lower than fifth in global and U.S. art-school rankings. Should be a great boost into her intended career as a gallerist or curator.
For me, I understand and respect all types of situations and positions. I understand and respect those families who have financial constraints and cannot afford private college tuition even with financial aid; I understand families who can afford the private college tuition but balk at the idea of paying $70K per year for a college education; and I also understand the families who gladly go full pay at the private colleges which fit their kids.
I don’t drive an expensive car myself but I understand why some decide to buy one. There are many things that I don’t do myself but I sort of understand.
The reality is that outside of the name Ivies (as opposed to no-name Ivies) most people have no conception of what schools are “good” and which are not. University of Pennsylvania is an Ivy but most people confuse it with Penn State or have no idea that it’s not another state school. Brown? Do most people know that’s an Ivy? Not sure. Outside of a bubble, it really does not matter unless you are going to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford or maybe MIT. Maybe Berkeley. Most people just don’t pay attention.
I followed a link from this site the other day with tips on test prep written by someone who was Salutatorian at an Ivy. I idly looked them on LinkedIn and the only notable achievement professionally that they have is blogging about how to score a high SAT. Patchwork of McJobs, currently in a position that a HS graduate usually does. For most people, it really just does not matter their degree, even their GPA. I have been in the position of hiring Ivy and top school applicants. I value a top education but it really comes down to can they do the job. If not, it has to be a no.
@CCtoAlaska , If you really want an eye-opener, go onto one of the leading college ranking sites, look up a top school, then read the reviews from students. The mangled punctuation and grammar of some of these reviews makes you cringe, and then leaves you to wonder how this person was granted acceptance.
@Vineyarder that was an observation about some of the comments here, I don’t really know how it is in the real word, not having gone to an elite school myself. S19 will hopefully tell me after he graduates.
@LMK5 yes! I’ve noticed that, too. My daughter was faced with a difficult decision on how to handle HS/college with one option being CC for her junior and senior years. When I saw how the reviews on the CC at different review sites were written so thoughtfully and with clear expression and grammar, I was right on board with the CC option. It does offer a lot of insight.
“you’re likely to be forever judged and evaluated more strictly”
I wouldn’t characterize it like that. But I do occasionally see remarks/assumptions in the real world that tend to stereotype particular elite schools. Just the other evening over drinks at a work event where my college came up, someone remarked “and I suppose you rowed crew too”. Unfortunately that stereotype was correct.
It is pretty much pure ROI for 90, maybe 95% of the students and parents. Even full-pay parents going to private elites look at ROI. The number one criteria for choosing a college is cost and affordability, not even sure there’s a close second, but it’s academic reputation of major, opportunities after college (which is jobs so ROI again, or grad school).
“They are not encouraged to favor top prestige private colleges by parents, friends, family, teachers, etc. Instead applying to the CA state system is the common path, with the least resistance. It’s a very different environment from the CC forums.”
Good point, and there’s the perception that Stanford is random, maybe even unfair in its admissions while UCs are more fair (can’t use race) and for sure CSU being just a formula of gpa and test scores (no essays, recommendations etc.) is the most straightforward, perhaps more fair as well.
I’ve never felt excessively judged or held to inappropriate standards due to my education—it just gave me a great grounding and a great network, besides the usual college fun and lifelong friends.