Dirty Secrets of College Admissions

Parents Forum
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<p>I absolutely agree that these notes should appear after acceptance, but I also think they'd be HUGELY appreciated after rejection as well. Why not?> I think any acknowledgement of the individual among thousands is wonderful, especially if it is an essay that "laid bare" the student's soul. Heck, I would think that kind of PS on a rejection letter would make the kid at least feel "seen." Certainly our children benefit from a certain amount of rejection in life and almost everyone learns more from mistakes and failures than success.</p>

<p>In all that I have read and heard of the schools to which my son applied, the college admissions process claims to be a thoughtful one. If I want to remain sane, I have to believe this is true. Certainly there is a fair amount of judging in this process, but it is not the admissions officers voice the kids hear when rejection comes. I would think that if my parents had spent thousands of dollars hiring a professional college counselor and I didn't come through with acceptance, failure was surely mine. I would have felt like I let them down or hadn't measured up. And if the teenager was ANYTHING Like me, they would feel like I had done that enough when I missed curfew a million times, or wrecked the car or had a party when they were out of town. And Lord knows had their been video games and youtube and facebook, I surely would have found a million more reasons to have found conflict with my parents. Now, as an adult having gone through the teenage years three times over, I see this as relatively normal stuff. But I surely didn't think that at 18. So, in the end, I wouldn't have read that stanford didn't want me, I would read that my parents wouldn't be proud of me AND I cost them a ton of money to boot. And admittedly, this is the first time I really thought about it like that. We call it giving our kids opportunity, but even in my being slightly guilty about going on and on about "what schools are looking for" to my own son, I might also call it something akin to telling them that on their own, they aren't quite good enough.</p>

<p>And really, I just put that out there as something to think about, myself included.</p>

<p>Ok.. and the crappy English teachers? I liked the comment about not piling on too much critique as a bridge to building better writers, but I would cringe if my kids papers were not being analyzed at a level appropriate to their age/grade/talent. For a good part of last year, my son mostly worked to improve rhythm, depth of thought, nuance and voice. But the truth is, I personally think the applications these days are so vanilla that it is little wonder applications have gone up and rates of acceptance have gone down. It takes very little to apply to 10 schools whereas in the 70's, filling out four VERY different applications was all that could be reasonably expected from a normal human being who was also trying to go to school as well.</p>

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<p>Interesting Modadunn, in our house it was the flip side; we felt we let my older kids down when they didn't get into their colleges of choice. We were well aware that our life choices made things difficult for them. Where we lived, what we did for a living, their schools--all these things raised the bar very high for them.</p>

<p>It's the ultimate irony, 3 decades ago they would have headed off to an ivy by virtue of all those things. Today the affluent NYC children of bankers and consultants who go to schools packed with legacies and the uber wealthy development kids are in a rough place for elite college admission.</p>

<p>One of the first things the consultants tell affluent families, as is discussed in several books, is to take anything smacking of wealth off the application. Investment banker becomes banker. Muffy does not talk of being an equestrian and Tripp doesn't mention regatta sailing. Don't mention the 25 countries you've visited. While you can't hide your school you can make them wonder if you're there on scholarship.</p>

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<p>Wow.hmom5, Gamesmanship with help of a consultant at its' best. Well done!</p>

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<p>Consultant? That was at Barnes and Noble for $24.99 though I could probably have gotten that cheaper on Amazon.</p>

<p>I am truly amazed at how many of you seem to believe we should sit back and let the colleges play all the games.</p>

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<p>hmom5, Great point! Also great advice. Colleges should not be able to play all the games. They hold alot of the cards.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
One of the first things the consultants tell affluent families, as is discussed in several books, is to take anything smacking of wealth off the application. Investment banker becomes banker. Muffy does not talk of being an equestrian and Tripp doesn't mention regatta sailing. Don't mention the 25 countries you've visited. While you can't hide your school you can make them wonder if you're there on scholarship.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ho hum. I listed my dad's occupation as "manager". Perhaps I should have put "electrical engineer". (He's a middle manager at a small electronics company, but his actual work is mostly EEE.) Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned making films, because now they'll think I have a boatload of money, when I spent less than S$600 of my own money on five short films. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned being on the air rifle team, either - maybe they'll think I have my own rifle and suit, and that's expensive. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that I'm an avid road cyclist (I think this is Singapore's equivalent of "equestrian"?), when in fact the road bike I now use cost only S$550 secondhand, and I paid for it out of my teaching pay. What about my drumset? It cost S$1000 out of my savings, accumulated over primary and secondary school. Maybe they'll think I have a soundproofed studio, when all I have is a few yoga mats and a detente agreement with my neighbours downstairs - downstairs! I live in an apartment, not a house, should I have made that clear, too?</p>

<p>Onoes, I'm never going to make it to that private school on the East Coast!</p>

<p>I did go to (public) school on a merit scholarship. Should I have mentioned that? I could say "scholarship" and they wouldn't know it was a merit scholarship, would they? This is not on my applications.</p>

<p>Oh, for goodness's sake. I was under the impression one of my short films was going to be featured in the national Chinese-language press, and I wrote on my apps that it was going to receive "national press coverage". It turned out to be a sort of "What's going on in town" arts and culture listing. I wrote to the schools and explained it - I could have left it, how fantastic would "national press coverage" sound? I'm sure if they asked, I could have talked my way out of it, but I didn't want to misrepresent my accomplishments.</p>

<p>It's not my place to pass judgment on anyone. If people feel admissions counselors are a great help - whether in admissions or in motivating students - then they must have some merit. But as far as gamesmanship, I don't play. What's on my application is there because that's what I do, that's my dad's official job title, this is what I've devoted my time to, and I'm not afraid of how adcoms will view it. This is the primary preoccupation of too many people on this side of the admissions process - how will adcoms like this? How will adcoms like that? What it ought to be (but probably never will be) is, "Does this application represent who I am? If my friends read it, would there be any bluff to call?"</p>

<p>I remember reading this NYT article where a Boston HS senior wryly referred to getting admission to a selective university as the "green light at the end of the dock". Well, Gatsby the Oggsford old sport was gaming it, too. "He hadn't once ceased looking at Daisy, and I think he revalued everything in his house according to the measure of response it drew from her well-loved eyes. Sometimes, too, he stared around at his possessions in a dazed way, as though in her actual and astounding presence none of it was any longer real." When you can apply a reading of the Great Gatsby to college admissions...</p>

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<p>Phantom, as you mentioned that you attend a state school in Singapore, I assume you're Asian. Since you have 87 posts, I'm sure it will come as no surprise to you that as an Asian international, you are in probably in the most competitive pool there is for admission at top colleges.</p>

<p>My children were in an ultra competitive pool too. They are affluent WASPs from overrepresented schools in an overrepresented city. Their high schools and peer schools were filled with legacies and the children of people who gave millions to these colleges. Much like you're competing with the wealthy, connected kids from Raffels. Statistically, you and my kids, even with very top stats, have a very hard time making it into ivies.</p>

<p>My oldest had a 1530/1600 eight years ago before it was anywhere near as competitive as it was now, with very good grades and activities. He didn't make it into his top picks while legacy, wealthy and connected kids with far lower stats did all around him. I was pretty busy that year and didn't really assess the situation as I should have, so the real wake up call didn't come until his sister faced a similar fate.</p>

<p>So, understanding the playing field is not level, would I tell you to use every advantage you can muster? Youbetcha!! Would I suggest you find ways to position yourself to stand out in a crowd of kids that have the same demographics as you, knowing only a few of you can make it in? Absolutely. </p>

<p>Trying to stand out from the crowd that you are competing with is something you'll do for the rest of your life if you're ambitious. As a women who has worked in a hyper-competitive, male dominated industry throughout my career, I learned that when you're faced with inherent negatives, you need to do whatever is in your power to minimize them and you need to accentuate the positives.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Much like you're competing with the wealthy, connected kids from Raffles. Statistically, you and my kids, even with very top stats, have a very hard time making it into ivies.</p>

<p>... So, understanding the playing field is not level, would I tell you to use every advantage you can muster? Youbetcha!! Would I suggest you find ways to position yourself to stand out in a crowd of kids that have the same demographics as you, knowing only a few of you can make it in? Absolutely.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think it's easier for me to take the view I do because I'm applying as a film major, with a solid body of film work and volunteering in the arts on top of school-based EC leadership positions. The schools I'm applying to are strong film schools, where my academic record is well above average. So in a way I feel I already "stand out" - in an Asian international pool, I have an atypical, focused set of ECs; against other potential film majors, my academics are stronger, and the film scene in Singapore that I've been involved in is vastly different from that in the US. A friend of mine from the same school who also took a gap year intends (at least, I think she intends) to go into environmental activism; her stats weren't stellar but her EC record and interests are very unique in the Singaporean context. </p>

<p>I will definitely have to say we are a very small minority though, because many of my friends are studying biz, engineering, econs, math, bio, physics - the "typical" Asian international fields. So I accept that for the great majority, your points are valid.</p>

<p>(It evens out - it's much harder to land a scholarship from a Singaporean organization as a film major - forget about art history and the like. Maybe that is precisely why so many Singaporeans apply to the same majors.)</p>

<p>When you put your view that way, it makes much more sense. I'll just say I don't believe it's as applicable in my case and some other cases I've seen. Right now I'm very comfortable with the way my applications are. But you're right, if my circumstances were different, my perspective on this might well be closer to yours.</p>

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<p>I appreciated Modadunn's insight about the risk of feeling guilty and inadequate when your parents hire a private counselor. It also reminded me of this year's hot new self-deprecatory t-shirt slogan at the University of Chicago: "The University of Chicago: Where Your Best Is Never Good Enough"</p>

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<p>HMom.. I think you know that I agree with your assessment of a lot of this stuff.</p>

<p>The bar set for my kids is similar to the one set for yours, very high. But I have no illusions that I don't contribute to that. Was it not my choice to have them apply to the private high school they now attend? Surely there were less academically rigorous ones. And since S has always loved to learn, he would have done that anywhere. My point previously was only that as parents we need to be careful when talking about college admissions that we don't talk about packaging our kids so much that they end up thinking they aren't good enough if they stand in their own light vs the one produced for them. I am not even so much suggesting the latter is bad since we all could stand a little better lighting in life at times. But sometimes I think the way this process is dissected is more akin to planning the wedding while giving very little thought to the marriage ahead. So what if Trip or Muffy get into Amherst or Dartmouth if neither one of those schools fit who they ultimately are. And by telling them they should have the "best," we (the adults) are the ones who tell them where those places are and it's pretty doubtful we'd be saying community college is where you should aspire to be. My point is, I just don't think the high expectations are coming from only the rest of the world.</p>

<p>And as an aside: they didn't even offer my husbands occupation as a choice on the common application and since I stay home as chief personal secretary for the family as a whole, I havent a clue what assumptions will be made about our life. But as with all assumptions... well, you know what they say. But when you check the little box that says you won't be applying for financial aid, that pretty much would tell me you do not attend your current school on scholarship regardless of what you or your spouses occupations are.</p>

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<p>JHS.. that is the motto of my kids' school as well.. only they add:where your best hasn't been good enough since 1900! A good sense of humor in this world is critical.</p>

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<p>Reading all your thoughtful comment tells me two things... the most obvious is no matter what your background, you love your kids and truly want the best for them. Whether you believe you are putting too much pressure and high expectations on your kids or too little, the fact that you’re considering this is testament of you love and devotion to your children who are so fortunate to have you!</p>

<p>The second is that this process is being entirely overanalyzed. Both of my children attend a top private school where parents were discussing SAT coaching and choosing the right EC’s and courses, etc. for admission to the best schools since middle school. I pretty much tuned them out because we honestly couldn’t afford the added expense on top of the hefty tuition we were paying but mostly because I wanted my daughters to be fully engaged in the challenging academic environment of their school and participate in activities that they chose based on their own interests without overstressing about college. I believe the high school journey was and is (I still have 1 in HS) just as important to their development as their college journey. </p>

<p>I have told my daughters that they should work hard and do their best in the classroom, on the athletic field and in every activity they participate. But courses, sports and activities were not selected because of how they would impress a college admission’s counselor. They were selected to enhance my daughters’ development and high school experience. </p>

<p>Now, neither of my daughters are “Ivy” material. They are strong students, with a solid work ethic and a refreshing delight in learning. So we do not put our sights on the Ivies. Our focus has been to find the best possible match in every aspect of the school. This has paid off for my first daughter who has made a home at Bucknell where she is thriving.</p>

<p>My main point is to RELAX and let your children enjoy high school while always encouraging them to do their best. If they do their best and apply to schools that are the best match for them, they should be admitted. I also believe that while they should obviously put their best foot forward on their applications, they should be themselves.</p>

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<p>Well said, kaleigh3.</p>

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<p>A few months ago I had major surgery that has sidelined me for a bit. On top of that DH and I have been planning our next career moves, ones that include getting off the treadmill. We can't complain, we've loved our first careers, the places they've brought us and the things they've afforded us. But with all of the kids out in the world, it's been great to have time to reflect on raising the kids, what we did well and what we would have done differently.</p>

<p>While DH and I pursued stereotypical MBA careers, we both came from homes where non college educated parents had achieved some success in very different ways.</p>

<p>So I couldn't agree more about letting kids know their choices are just that and that success comes in many different packages. Yet the reality is we lived in NYC and sent them to the best schools, camps and summer programs we could find, where families on the whole defined high school success as getting into one of 10 colleges.</p>

<p>My kids are legacies at Penn and Stanford, yet none of the three applied to either. They were not good fits and they were simply uninterested. Go figure! They each truly fell in love with different schools, one a techie school, one a small LAC and the last an ivy.</p>

<p>So what I'm saying is not about just chasing a pedigree. I'm saying that every college in the land is playing their own game. I'm not critical of that....they're entitled. But to me it became a matter of getting into the spirit of the game. </p>

<p>OK colleges, I get that you practice enrollment management, quotas, need blind admissions while coming up with the same percentage on aid every year, PC ideals and a whole lot more on your way to a well rounded class. If you were public companies you would be on the front page of the WSJ as another exposed industry who said one thing and surreptitiously did another. You go out in the world and tell these kids the playing field is level when it is anything but. You invite them to love you while not mentioning you spurn their demographic.</p>

<p>So for me, figuring out how to win in this arena was like figuring out how to be the woman who shatters the glass ceiling or how to beat the odds in the stock market. Nothing more, nothing less.</p>

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<p>Wow, hmom....I couldn't have said this better myself.......you really hit the "nail on the head" for many of us.....</p>

<p>I just posted a similar argument/post on another thread.....but you said it MUCH better....</p>

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<p>
[quote]
One of the first things the consultants tell affluent families, as is discussed in several books, is to take anything smacking of wealth off the application. Investment banker becomes banker. Muffy does not talk of being an equestrian and Tripp doesn't mention regatta sailing. Don't mention the 25 countries you've visited. While you can't hide your school you can make them wonder if you're there on scholarship.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hmom, I've read that advice also.</p>

<p>Yet I know a kid who attends one of the most elite private schools in another major city--a school where the Model UN team gets to go to Paris and Berlin, and the school trips are to Egypt and China--and it's my understanding that they got 5 out of 8 applicants into Yale SCEA, including several kids whose qualifications were less than that of public school kids I know here who were deferred and denied. </p>

<p>I also know a well-to-do family whose [very bright I might add] private-school kid got a likely letter from H for sailing.</p>

<p>Maybe it's NYC that's the problem! :D</p>

<p>We live in a well-to-do town for our state, yet our family has been in financial straights/turmoil for a number of years. My S attended summer programs only because he got substantial scholarships and because we took the rest of the money out of home equity. (There's no way to put that on the Common App.) He never took a prep course, despite the fact that we live in a place where we are told "everyone" assumes he would have. He didn't have a private counselor. Yet according to the books, all ad comms were going to assume that he had all of the assistance that financial surplus could provide.</p>

<p>It was frustrating.</p>

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<p>So</a> long, suckers. Millionaire hedge fund boss thanks 'idiot' traders and retires at 37 | Business | The Guardian</p>

<p>
[quote]
"The low-hanging fruit, ie idiots whose parents paid for prep school, Yale and then the Harvard MBA, was there for the taking," he wrote. "These people who were (often) truly not worthy of the education they received (or supposedly received) rose to the top of companies such as AIG, Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers and all levels of our government," he said. </p>

<p>"All of this behaviour supporting the aristocracy only ended up making it easier for me to find people stupid enough to take the other side of my trades. God bless America."

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>I really enjoy CC, but one issue is that when debates get going judgement seems to creep in. So I get multiple PMs saying the same thing: I don't want to post on the thread but could you give me advice or suggest a counselor? While I'm happy to do that, it would seem so much more productive if we could make people more comfortable posting. It weakens what we all get out of it if we don't feel OK about posting our views.</p>

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<p>In alot of ways the advice on this website seems like private counseling.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
"colleges, I get that you practice enrollment management, quotas, need blind admissions while coming up with the same percentage on aid every year, PC ideals and a whole lot more on your way to a well rounded class. If you were public companies you would be on the front page of the WSJ as another exposed industry who said one thing and surreptitiously did another. You go out in the world and tell these kids the playing field is level when it is anything but. You invite them to love you while not mentioning you spurn their demographic."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is something that I noticed too. It seemed like at the top colleges they do keep about the same percentages especially when it comes to minorities, often times the number of hispanics and blacks would be almost exactly the same, at princeton it is.</p>