<p>^^^ I agree. If my son were to receive such a personal note full of praise, I'm sure he'd think he was in. I'd save the nice note for the acceptance letter.</p>
<p>Re analogies between guitar teachers, sports coaches, etc. and hiring a college counselor to teach/coach?? a student applying to college--I don't consider them to be valid. </p>
<p>If you hire a guitar teacher or work with a sports coach, the student or athlete is learning a skill. It's an ongoing process. There is a body of knowledge and the student is absorbing it.</p>
<p>In the case of the college applicant, the student is presenting him/herself as a candidate to a school. The whole point is to present who you are as well as your capabilities. If you pay someone to help, you are blurring the picture. The applicant can no longer take full credit for the application.</p>
<p>Perhaps the paid help results in a "better" application, but the trade off is that it no longer is completely the work of the applicant. If the applicant independently does the work, there can be no question -- it provides an accurate picture. The applicant can take satisfaction in his/her acceptance base on his/her own merits. If there is paid assistance, the applicant is more likely to see it as a process that can be "gamed," (ie, the hard work you did, resulting in your credentials, is not enough to get you in) or to feel that he/she couldn't have gained admittance without help (which, in my view, is often NOT the case).</p>
<p>Fendrock, when a teacher critiques a student's paper and the student does a rewrite, is it no longer the student's work?</p>
<p>hmom5, If you can get that kind of help from a teacher, why do you have to pay a college counselor to do it?</p>
<p>I'm not getting what the difference is.</p>
<p>And Fendrock, one thing I personally know from a brief stint in admissions in my youth (not to mention my hours on CC and reading the top books), the process can be, and is, totally gamed. </p>
<p>I respect your position if you'd prefer not to play. But many are playing and I didn't know the game with my first two. I was in a time warp not understanding things had dramatically changed in the last 25 years. For my third we got in the game and were on the winning team. Once I knew I understood the game there was still time for DD to switch to the winning team, and she won too and transferred to her original top choice. Didn't even have to pay for that one, the coach had taught me what I needed to know.</p>
<p>The difference is that you are paying someone because you think it will provide an advantage.</p>
<p>Otherwise it could be seen as a simple writing assignment where, as you point out, getting feedback is part of a student's work.</p>
<p>What are the elements of the application process that you feel are gamed?</p>
<p>Of course the process is "gamed" but that's not the point. This reminds me of a Farside cartoon where the Creature from the Black Lagoon is laying on the psychiatrist's couch and as he stares into the ceiling above him the caption reads: "Ok, ok, I know I'm a creature; but do I have to be such a miserable creature?"</p>
<p>Really, what is the game?</p>
<p>That a college needs a ____ [fill in the blank -- oboe player, civil history buff, Intel finalist]?</p>
<p>That they want students who have taken the most difficult possible courses?</p>
<p>That they want students from North Dakota as well as the Long Island suburbs?</p>
<p>Or??</p>
<p>I paid hefty tuition to private schools which paid the teacher's and counselor's. You somehow feel it would have been more just for me to use their services? It's like insisting I use in-house counsel when I feel another attorney in private practice might be better for a task. They are both professionals, but because one sits in my building it's a lesser advantage if I use him?</p>
<p>And I own a home in a place where the school tax on the house, although we don't use the schools and never had, is equal to a private school tuition. I was entitled to use their counselors too. Would that have somehow been more aboveboard?</p>
<p>I'm just not getting this.</p>
<p>How is the system gamed? Where to start? If you know what your customer wants and have access to more, smarter research about how to get that customer in the door, you win. Best Buy is still in business and Circuit City is gone.</p>
<p>50% of applicants to the ivies are fully qualified, but 10% get in. It's not too hard to significantly up your chances of being in the smaller group without compromising anyone's ethics.</p>
<p>And none of the things you mention are even in the realm of where we got value. We didn't do the 4 year, guide us through the maze package, just the how to put together a great application package. I've articulated clearly where we found value.</p>
<p>There's something I want to note here. A few posts back, someone talked about a teacher commenting on a student's paper, and the student rewriting it. That reminds me of a significant failure that I saw both in an elite private school and in a well-regarded public magnet: essentially, that rarely happened, or it rarely happened with any degree of quality.</p>
<p>Beyond rudimentary grammar, spelling and usage correction (which was spotty), and some pedestrian rules about how to set up paragraphs, hardly any of my children's high school teachers did much to teach them how to write. (They were OK on teaching them how to use evidence, but that was about as far as it went.) This was especially true of my writer-child, who was always so far ahead of the grade-level curve that only a couple teachers ever challenged her at all to get better. A teacher read a first draft of one college essay, asked her to correct one (out of several) grammatical errors, pronounced it perfect, and handed it out to the rest of the class as a model. She later scrapped that essay as being too boring to live. My non-writer child got a little more help, because his needs were more basic, but whenever I saw his teachers' comments on a paper I was shocked at the grammatical and syntax errors that were missed, and the complete lack of commentary on the intellectual and logical quality of the arguments. </p>
<p>My mother was an English teacher, I watched her correct papers for years. She wrestled with each student's thought as well as his grammar. I did that when I taught a literature class, too, and so did one retired teacher who taught a minicourse one child took in 10th grade, and a couple of history teachers. But most of my children's teachers clearly didn't see that as their job.</p>
<p>I never thought to hire a writing tutor for them, I just tried to do some of that myself. But maybe I should have.</p>
<p>
[quote]
50% of applicants to the ivies are fully qualified, but 10% get in. It's not too hard to significantly up your chances of being in the smaller group without compromising anyone's ethics.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If the student is fully qualified, I personally don't believe that hiring a college counselor will significantly improve the chances of being in the smaller group.</p>
<p>Finding a teacher to help review an essay is something any applicant can do. Paying a college counselor to give an essay an edge is something a parent decides to do help the student's chances.... thus moving outside the realm of an independent effort.</p>
<p>Uncle.......</p>
<p>JHS, Yes, that's a tricky one. I can only speak from personal experience, but as an instructor, as I'm sure you know, you have to work step by step. I can remember spending inordinate amounts of time and effort going over my students' writing only to ultimately pull myself back in order to remember that they can only accept a limited amount of correction before psychological damage sets in. With the writers who were really gifted I was just thankful they were in my class. Corrections there were mostly directed toward rhetorical skills, argumentative logic, and insight. Gifted writers are much more inclined to self-critique their own writing as they develop. And this was at an Ivy League institution, where, I must say (as it is the basis for a post script to one of my former posts) their abilities were, on balance, rather shoddy. And this from a high school drop out, community college/state college educated, elite graduate-school pack mule.</p>
<p>I hear ya, hmom5, time to agree to disagree....</p>
<p>Wow. I have never heard anyone complain about getting a personal note from an admission officer. </p>
<p>We hear complaints about a lack of communication during reading season, but those admission officers who reach out to say "good job" (and only a few of my more esteemed colleagues in the profession do this) are deeply misleading and mean. Interesting.</p>
<p>When I'm saddened by how admission officers are talked about on here, it's time to step away for a while. This is yet another one of those times.</p>
<p>In our high school, students in the regular English classes are usually offered help with writing college essays. This assistance consists of primarily a grammar, spelling, and maybe organization check. The students in the upper classes are offered no help at all, since it is presumed they are competent writers from the standpoint of those three criteria. And this was true for my S. His common app. essay was a good writing sample, since that's what we mistakenly thought the college essay should be. While we were aware it was supposed to be original and preferably creative, since S is much more of factual, textbook-style writer than a creative one, he did what he knew how to do well. The essay showed he could organize his thoughts, develop an argument, and express his ideas clearly and with proper usage. It did NOT, however, showcase his personality, reveal his passion, or demonstrate any uniqueness. And it certainly was too bland to be memorable.</p>
<p>Is the understanding we lacked what you're calling an "edge," fendrock? Because if so, at that time he couldn't have gotten that for free from his English teacher, his GC, or me. While I don't like the long-term orchestrating and packaging, if people can pay for and receive the type of guidance we needed, I don't have a problem with it. S still would have been the same kid, with the same grades, test scores, and EC's as before. The essay still would have been his own work. The only difference would have been that an expert would have known what we didn't: what the adcoms are looking for.</p>
<p>That sounds like I'm endorsing using private counselors. I'm not. But I do recognize that when kids have the advantage of sophisticated experts to guide them, it could make a difference. IMO, the system should be so simple that no one needs to hire anyone to help. Filing taxes should be that easy too.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Wow. I have never heard anyone complain about getting a personal note from an admission officer.</p>
<p>We hear complaints about a lack of communication during reading season, but those admission officers who reach out to say "good job" (and only a few of my more esteemed colleagues in the profession do this) are deeply misleading and mean. Interesting.</p>
<p>When I'm saddened by how admission officers are talked about on here, it's time to step away for a while. This is yet another one of those times.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Dean J, what parents are conveying to you is that when an applicant receives a positive personal note from an admissions officer in advance of the decision it is usually taken as a sign that the applicant will be accepted. To raise the hopes of an applicant only to reject them seems, on the receiving end, quite cruel albeit unintentionally so. </p>
<p>You don't seem to have realized how such notes are viewed by many, if not most, of their recipients.</p>
<p>I would simply hope that now that you have heard what most kids seem to experience, you and other admissions officers would confine yourselves to adding such notes to decision letters and likely letters. (My S received such a note from one school, but only on the decision letter. It was a thoughtful touch.)</p>
<p>The selective school admissions process asks kids to reveal their true selves, especially in their essays, to lay their essence bare and offer it for judgment. At selective schools, the vast majority-- many of whom are encouraged to apply by marketing--are rejected. And because of the emphasis on essays and voice and passions and recommendations that rejection can feel deeply personal. No letter pointing out that there were too many qualified applicants can assuage the feeling that they were weighed and found wanting.</p>
<p>And YOUR feelings are hurt ? With all due respect, I think that is looking at it from the wrong end of the telescope.</p>
<p>Consolation, hear! hear!!!</p>
<p>A long time ago, a young man I know really, really, really (repeat many times) wanted to go to Harvard. He applied early and got rejected in December--which really (repeat many times) upset him. In those days Harvard didn't reject a lot of early applicants in December--most were deferred. Then he got a handwritten note from Ted O'Neill at UChicago, telling him that his essay was among the best half-dozen submitted that year. His mood and his parents' mood soared. I still remember what his mom said, "You don't send someone a letter like that unless you are going to admit him." That was the first person I knew about who got such a letter from O'Neill. In the intervening years, a few more kids got such notes. Every one of them got into UChicago. </p>
<p>It was not an "early write," but kids and parents interpreted that way. That's what we are trying to convey. I was surprised when Columbia_Student said that someone got such a note and got rejected. </p>
<p>I too would think that if the dean of admissions--not just an admissions officer--sent my kid a handwritten letter saying that his essay--at a school which puts as much emphasis on essays as UChicago--was one of the half-dozen best out of thousands, he was definitely getting in. If it doesn't mean that, it would be kinder not to send it until the student is admitted. </p>
<p>jonri</p>
<p>I agree with Consolation. Seems such notes should be confined to decision letters and likely letters. The admissions process is a very vulnerable time for kids. The admissions people have all the power before a decision is made. Why throw out false hope only to then reject a kid? What is the purpose? Kids feelings should be respected during the process.</p>
<p>Wow, my daughter (currently applying) would be totally over the moon if she got a personal letter from an admissions officer praising her essay. After she came down off the ceiling she probably go on-line and order that school's hoodie immediately. I'm glad I read this thread so I can warn her that it really doesn't signify anything.</p>