Dirty Secrets of College Admissions

Parents Forum
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<p>"Some people see it differently, due to their personal experiences and environment. Some work in fields where the only kids they see getting an interview, much less geting hired,into their firm, and other similar firms, come preponderantly from a tiny pool of elite colleges. And these positions offer among the highest remuneration in America for people who cannot do things with a ball. They want the best for their kids, including opportunities to enter these high-remuneration professions that have served them so well. So, from their perspective, they do in fact see it as that important."</p>

<p>Then said people, despite their money and high-paying jobs, aren't really all that smart in the true sense of the word smart, if they think the world rises and sets on certain schools. Do certain schools provide advantages? Of course. But anyone with any sophistication can point to people who have done quite well for themselves economically without going to Ivy / Top 20 colleges, because there are more opportunities for doing well economically than simply the-same-20-firms.</p>

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<p>Be that as it may, that's what they personally see happening around them and I think it influences their "world view" to an extent.</p>

<p>I think they might say that actually they are not stupid, rather they have been immersed in a slice of the working world that most people never see. And are therefore accurately informed, about that at least. Whereas others, looking far from the outside, may be a bit naive and idealistic about it, they might think.</p>

<p>YMMV, and all that.</p>

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<p>I still don't get it. For hmom's kids:</p>

<p>D2 - no counselor - In at Amherst
S3 - with counselor - In a Dartmouth.</p>

<p>What is the difference? Are you saying Dartmouth is better than Amherst because it's an Ivy League?</p>

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<p>
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They want the best for their kids, including opportunities to enter these high-remuneration professions that have served them so well.

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</p>

<p>Wanting what is best for your kid is not the same as setting them up to enter a highly renumerated field. In the last generation, the joke was every ambitious parent wanted a doctor in the family. What if the kid wants to do something else? What if, as is often the case, a kid has no interest in following in his/her father's/mother's footsteps?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Winning a highly coveted college slot becomes, from their perspective, analogous to winning another important piece of business.

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<p>It is not all about the parent "winning." It is about young people living their own lives.</p>

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<p>Not that anything's not also excellent in itself, but perhaps they just personally would have preferred elsewhere.</p>

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<p>I think they would say that, if the kid wants to do something else, their chances of being able to do it are not diminished by attending one of these schools. I imagine in most cases it's up to the kid to decide what they want to study and where they want to apply, but the parents may think they know a thing or two about how the kid might maximize their chances of achieving a hard-to-get goal that the kids haven't learned yet. i.e., learning how to work the odds to be more in your favor, to the extent this can be done.</p>

<p>In some of those schools/ communities, the kids are more competitive and superfical-success driven than the parents are. The parents are just helping the kids achieve what the kids themselves want. But they also approve of entry to these schools as a good objective, for stated reasons/ perspectives.</p>

<p>I remember when we looked at one rather well-known NYC private school, the kids were all walking around with Ivy league sweatshirts. It was known for its intense competition, but the people there insisted it all came from the kids themselves. I believed them.</p>

<p>My kid didn't apply there.</p>

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<p>I think what bothers me is NOT that there is such a quest for top colleges, but that some people's definition of top colleges seems so painfully narrow- i.e thinking Amherst is somewhat of a sub-par result.
Monydad- what you are saying may be true for Wall Street, but for 99% of professions and business communities, a much wider range of schools would be considered impressive.<br>
I would say in 99% of the south, a Vanderbilt or Emory grad isn't going to lose out to Penn or even Yale just based on degree value. So why do people get so upset that they can't find a formula to guarantee a Yale/Harvard acceptance?</p>

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<p>
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It is not all about the parent "winning." It is about young people living their own lives.

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</p>

<p>But then what are they going to brag about on the golf course (men) or garden club (women)? UGGGGGH!</p>

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<p>
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I would say in 99% of the south, a Vanderbilt or Emory grad isn't going to lose out to Penn or even Yale just based on degree value

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</p>

<p>Or, in the oil business to an Aggie ;)</p>

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<p>The CEO of my company is one of the more highly respected CEOs in the country (Fortune 200- or we used to be before the recession) and he is an LSU grad. His MBA is from somewhere else in La.<br>
My presence on this forum is indicative of the value I place on higher education, and I certainly supported my kids in their quests for admission to top schools, but it just isn't like the Super Bowl where there is only one winner.</p>

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<p>As was mentioned many posts ago, parents have a tremendous influence on their children. </p>

<p>If the parent sees it as the family business to "win a highly coveted college slot," and considers anything less to be a major loss, of course the children will pick up on that. They will pursue their parents goals because they don't want to be disappointments to their parents, and may feel their parents will be ashamed of them or not love them if they do not succeed. (At the very least, the parents will not have necessary bragging rights as pointed out by ag54).</p>

<p>In my mind, all of this is unnecessary. There are so many definitions of success and means of achieving it. Sure, it's great to attend an Ivy League school and it can open many doors. But students can attend many other schools without being "losers."</p>

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<p>Monydad, I could not have said it better myself.</p>

<p>I feel very judged here, but I'm not one to hold back. </p>

<p>Indeed, those who have the experience of hitting high highs in terms of wealth, by working for it, most often come away thinking, or perhaps knowing, that school mattered. Both the name on the degree and the connections they made at these schools gave them or those around them a pass to the top as they define it. This would be the thinking of both those who went to top schools and those who didn't, who will often tell you how much harder they perceive getting there was for them.</p>

<p>Perhaps more importantly, these people have gotten used to being able to give their prized children the best of everything. Schools in fact, seem to be they only thing money can't buy unless it's huge money. Many of these folks get the first lesson on this front when their first child applies to kindergarten.</p>

<p>This is not about, in most cases, them wanting their kids to follow in their professional footsteps. It's about wanting to gift their child with every option in life. It's seen as their job. What was all that work for--making all that money--if not to give your children a golden future. And as mony said, in their world, that means a very top college.</p>

<p>When you read The Price Of Admission, you see that this notion runs across people who made money in all different ways, not just the stereotypical investment bankers. Clothing designers, movie stars--they all want the money to go to getting their kids that prized education.</p>

<p>So to bring the discussion full circle, what I was addressing is whether there were ways to break through some of what I see as the unfair manipulations of some prep schools in the college process. I think there are. And for those of you who think I was saying Amherst was not a prized school, I certainly was not! It was DD's dream school from day one and she got there as a transfer after we figured out a few things.</p>

<p>And the irony of this thread is that a lot of loud voices are saying one thing here and a lot of softer voices are PMing me for the names of counselors. I really wish people felt comfortable about posting dissenting views on these boards. Do you think we can be a little less judgemental?</p>

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<p>Where we live in Fairfield County, CT, the view provided by monydad is extremely pervasive. Many parents are professionals or executives and large numbers graduated from top colleges. Throughout their own careers they have benefited from the intangibles associated with an elite education and they want to provide that edge to their own children. In this area, most children from upper-income families attend public schools making them extremely competitive and very successful at placing students at elite colleges. Towns compete with each other for bragging rights about gets more kids into HYPSM. Our school counselor told us on our first meeting when we were discussing target schools for D1, that a list loaded with elite colleges was a very strong tipoff that the parents themselves had attended such colleges. They were simply not willing to consider less selective alternatives even if they offered a potentially better "fit". We are not talking stereo-typical Asian American parents enamored with a brand name, but highly sophisticated, experienced and informed parents. The rule was always to target as high as possible and generally enroll at whtaver most selective college your were admitted. </p>

<p>The issue for many of the parents is not whether attendance at a lower ranked college will necessarily preclude their kids from achieving successful careers. After all, most parents interact on a daily basis with successful colleagues with non-elite college backgrounds. The real point is that a student at an elite college is much more likely to get into the best graduate schools, professional schools or get a better summer internship or better paying job upon graduation. A few students at less selective colleges will do just as well, but the vast majority simply won't. Everything they know, because they experienced it firsthand, tells them that an elite education will make a difference. They see it where they live, where they work, where they vacation. In this down economy with fewer opportunities available to young graduates they are even more convinced of the value. </p>

<p>Helping launch their kids on a slightly higher trajectory is therefore seen by many highly educated parents as the last push they can provide before their kids are on their own. After that, their influence will be minimal.</p>

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<p>"I would say in 99% of the south, a Vanderbilt or Emory grad isn't going to lose out to Penn or even Yale just based on degree value. So why do people get so upset that they can't find a formula to guarantee a Yale/Harvard acceptance?"</p>

<p>In the case of the people I personally know: because they are investment bankers living in NYC, and they think the South is right next to Pluto.</p>

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<p>"Towns compete with each other for bragging rights about gets more kids into HYPSM."</p>

<p>Blech.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The real point is that a student at an elite college is much more likely to get into the best graduate schools, professional schools or get a better summer internship or better paying job upon graduation. A few students at less selective colleges will do just as well, but the vast majority simply won't.

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<p>This is simply false. Graduate and professional school admissions are heavily based on admission test scores and GPA. Undergrad school helps a little bit, but mainly because the kid probably had the smarts to begin with! </p>

<p>I have always been somewhat of a school snob. My kids went to the best private schools from preschool on and we sought top colleges for them. I have learned so much over the last 5 years though, and realize that there is a much wider "top" than I used to think. I just wish this insight for everyone else. :)</p>

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<p>"In the case of the people I personally know: because they are investment bankers living in NYC, and they think the South is right next to Pluto."</p>

<p>Which is exactly my point: They THINK they're all-so-sophisticated because they are investment bankers in NYC, but they haven't a darn clue that if you want to go by money as the measure of success, there's a hell of a lot of money around Atlanta or Charlotte or wherever, and a hell of a lot of it is being made by people whose connections aren't Ivy connections, but because they were together at Vanderbilt or Emory. Or UGeorgia or Ole Miss or SMU for that matter.</p>

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<p>I used to be a school snob but now having read CC I'm actually less of a school snob and my eyes have been opened to a lot of great places I wouldn't have otherwise known about.</p>

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<p>"there's a hell of a lot of money around Atlanta or Charlotte or wherever, and a hell of a lot of it is being made by people whose connections aren't Ivy connections, but because they were together at Vanderbilt or Emory. Or UGeorgia or Ole Miss or SMU for that matter. "</p>

<p>Perhaps a school with regional appeal/ clout most pronounced in areas of the country they don't contemplate ever living in might have less appeal to some people.</p>

<p>Others would have those schools at the top of their lists. But people differ.</p>

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<p>I am not a school snob. I do however see a huge value in the best education I can provide for my kids.
Different people will view best education differently, that is fair . I am not putting down my friends who think that our state flagship is the best option for their kids.
Monydad - you are right on the ball with your comments :)</p>