<p>I have the sense that in recent years, many top schools have given extra points to applicants from resource-poor settings without savvy GCs or private consultants, who nevertheless amass the credentials necessary to put them on an equal footing with other solid candidates.</p>
<p>Thanks, hmom5, for clarifying that. </p>
<p>Perhaps I am naive, but I really believe that with my son doing the application process in his own voice, in his own way (with some guidance/editing from us or teachers), he will wind up with a good match. I hope so, at least.</p>
<p>I'm with gadad. Our S was from a small, rural high school that had never sent a kid to an Ivy League college. I know the GC made no calls or contacts on his behalf, and we certainly didn't use a private counselor or consultant. Yet he was admitted to Harvard.</p>
<p>I think any kid with a parent who hangs around here has many of the advantages a private counselor brings. I think the people who use those folks are generally those with money but no time.</p>
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it truly smacks of smarmy old ivy ways of doing business
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I find this whole system disgusting. When did the high school counselors become so powerful? Back in my day (the 70s) we had one guidance counselor for a class of 500. She didn't know any of the students and had never heard of most of the colleges we were applying to, and we all did fine. Her only role was to make sure transcripts, etc. went out.</p>
<p>I am not happy that these counselors now have such a central role in the admissions process. Some may offer good advice (the one in our high school is able to predict with remarkable accuracy where students will be accepted.) But I don't like the idea of coziness or contact between counselors and colleges. </p>
<p>In most high schools the counselors only know a handful of students, so it seems absurd that they are now required to write a recommendation letter for everyone. I have seen a few favorite students singled out by counselors and helped immensely in the admissions process and I don't think they should have this kind of power or access.</p>
<p>I, for one, think its great that college admissions is not formulaic. Life is not formulaic. I tell my kids that the admissions process is akin to finding a job and that college and the effort they should put into college once accepted is akin to working at a job. For instance, I applied once upon a time along with 200 other people for a position. I was qualified, so made the first cut (think GPS and test scores). Then I was measured against all the other qualifieds and made the second cut probably because I had some additional characteristics that were appealing (think essays and ECs). Then comes the third round where I was judged on less tangible characterisitcs: fitting in with the other associates, likeability, temperment (think interviews, displaying love for the school). If you are lucky you might know someone inside the company that will advocate much like some kids have a GC that advocates. We like to think that the "most qualified" person gets the job, or that the "most qualified" candidates get into a particular college...but both processes are fraught with less quantifiable steps. It's a good life lesson for parents who tend by nature to not be able to see their children objectively and for students. I doubt that the adcom rejected every applicant from Buffalo that day...but I betcha he rejected quite a few!</p>
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On advantages in the admissions process </p>
<p>Current admissions officer, Ivy League university </p>
<p>“Any admissions director who uses the line about needing an oboe player is lying. There’s no admissions person in the country with a clue what the student orchestra needs. More likely, Mommy and Daddy gave a $1 million donation. That oboe thing is just a PR ploy.”
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<p>I agree with JHS on this. My S was specifically asked whether or not he played a certain less common instrument during an on campus Ivy interview. The interviewer outright told him they were looking to find someone who played that instrument.</p>
<p>Don't LET me find out which AdCom deleted all applicants from Buffalo one night, just because s/he'd gotten food poisoning at an area restaurant! If I ever find out who s/he is, I'm shipping a package of our city's classic: Beef on Weck with horseradish, sent via Antarctica for maximum delivery time. Yees/h. How unfair!</p>
<p>Regarding the role of hiring a private independent counselor vs. large HS GC. I think the private counselor could be a great coach for the application process but that's pretty much where it ends, right?</p>
<p>How do you coach the HS GC to advocate for your child? Knowing they probably won't do it as well as elite private HS counselors, how do you overcome this deficit? I know where one mom asked the HS guidance counselor to call the desired college and the response was "Well what else could I say?"</p>
<p>I doubt the private, for hire counselor could call the college on behalf of their client, yet the private elite school counselor would not hesitate (unless they didn't like the fit).</p>
<p>Since we're having the discussion, it's important to understand the flip side, yes the bad side, of the connected private school counselor. Many run fiefdoms that are not enjoyed by parents. </p>
<p>They know 7 will get into each of HY and P and want to choose the 7. They have 2 big donor's (to the high school) kids, 2 legacies, an athlete and a top URM lined up for each. So what if Johnny, at the top of the class, wants to go to HYP, he needs to settle for Cornell......</p>
<p>At schools that send 30% to top colleges, it's almost never the top 30%.</p>
<p>I think adcoms use slightly different standards for kids from large public schools. They know that the GC are dealing with truancy, teenage pregnancy, standardized testing, course scheduling, hallway patrols, for 500 students. I really don't believe that they expect a deeply personal recommendation, and that they take that into account. JMHO!</p>
<p>Ouch........</p>
<p>And the phenomenon described in Post #30 is not limited to the GC's of private schools, I'm sure. We saw this pre-selection process performed by the principal and certain teachers at our large public high school. Some parents I knew went in to see the principal, who was a grad of a top Ivy, in order to discuss the enviroment at his alma mater and whether their son (an athlete) would be a good match there. The principal more or less laughed at them and highlighted by name a particular student at the high school whom he was recommending and grooming for that Ivy and who was oh-so-much-better than their S. Well, it's true their son was probably not Ivy material, but as it turned out, the other student wasn't either and was not admitted to a single Ivy. I failed to understand how she merited the principal's help above at least 10 other equally or more qualified students.</p>
<p>Also, my S was a great student in history and social studies, so he asked his AP History teacher to write a college recommendation for him. She agreed readily, but after the letter was sent, admitted to S that it was tough for her to do honestly because her own S, also a student at the same school, was applying to many of the same colleges. You can imagine our panic. And she didn't think to recuse herself? My S knew of her son, but as he was not a top student, S did not expect him to be applying to any of the same schools. Also, when none of these teachers have themselves attended an particular college or university, I'm not sure how they are qualified to judge whether or not one very qualified and bright student is a better match for a school than another highly qualified and bright student. Yet they'll say, "Oh, I could see so-and-so at X school." Based on what criteria?</p>
<p>GFG, at least your principal was upfront. At my kid's schools it was a total charade. I didn't even get the game until after child 2! For number 3 we hired an outside counselor and got to the bottom of what was going on, and really, we're not babes in the woods. He was class val with near perfect SAT's at a highly selective school and had some wonderful accomplishments by any measure, and was discouraged from applying to Princeton.</p>
<p>In all honesty I thank GOD for this website. If I had not stumbled on here one day my junior year i would never have learned that you are supposed to demonstrate passion, never learned that colleges want focused ECs, never learned basically how to package my application.
I think this website and the people on here have helped me tremendously, and even if I do not get accepted to my schools, I know I put together one heck of an application, and I think I owe alot to this website.</p>
<p>For us kids as public schools we have NO idea about this process, I mean all this stuff was so foreign before this website, so I definitely appreciate CC.</p>
<p>Exactly, Dbate. A year or so ago there was a thread about transparency in college admissions in which many of us, like you, lamented the fact that certain aspects of the admission selection process are known by the prep school crowd, perhaps, but not the rest of us public schoolers. I didn't discover CC until it was too late in many ways to help my S prepare a quality application. D is a completely different kind of kid, but still I've gotten lots of great advice from CCers regarding her niche in the college game. Now that we know things like you mentioned, ie. colleges want to see passion and focused EC's, it seems so obvious. But it wasn't before we knew it. And when trends change, the public schools kids are the last to know. We were still of the opinion they wanted well-rounded kids. Now they want well-lopsided. Who knew?</p>
<p>I am finding this thread a bit depressing. I had two kids go through private high school with good college guidance and support but now I have a son in a large public high school (800 kids in his Freshman class) in an affluent area where at least 100 of his classmates are considered academically "gifted". There is ONE college guidance counselor for the entire school of 3200 kids. The top 5% of the kids claw their way through high school to vie for the top ranks (they take AP's over the summer and online then lie to each other to try to one up them on class rank)!!!<br>
My son aspires (time will tell) to be in the top 5% of his class. I just spoke to another parent whose child was ranked 23 (top 3%)two years ago (with great EC's and decent SAT's) and the kid was still waitlisted at Emory and Wash U St. Louis and did not get into any of her top college choices (she is at our flagship state U now and very happy but that is not my point). What's the point of my son busting his #$%%% for four years? My son is NOT going to make any high school sports team (our teams are very competive) and he is not going to be the kid who stands out with any sort of hook on his applications. He is just a bright kid, who studies hard, plays sports and video games on the weekends, and wants to go to a prestigious college someday. How can/or should I enlighten him to futility of the current state of college admissions?
It's not that I don't think he is terrific, he is a great kid. But on paper, he just dosen't stand out. I just don't see, after years of reading CC and learning about the college admissions stats of our high school, how he could compete. He graduates high school in 2012, maybe things will be easier then for an unhooked white upper middle class boy from the suburbs???</p>
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What's the point of my son busting his #$%%% for four years?
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<p>To be the best {insert his name here} he can be. Nothing more. He owes himself his best effort, not some admissions officer at some place where the people are somehow more important.</p>
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The principal more or less laughed at them and highlighted by name a particular student at the high school whom he was recommending and grooming for that Ivy and who was oh-so-much-better than their S.
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</p>
<p>Just to add, and not specific to Ivy schools at all, but I do think that some public school GCs or principals would go the extra mile for a particular student if a parent is a member of the Board of Education, or plays another important role within the school. Just one more thing that can be unfair about admissions. What the parent contributes should have nothing to do with a student's admission to college. That's life.</p>
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He graduates high school in 2012, maybe things will be easier then for an unhooked white upper middle class boy from the suburbs???
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</p>
<p>Actually, there are some very excellent, even prestigious, schools that would love a kid with this profile now. Vassar, Skidmore, Conn College, Kenyon -- there are a bunch of schools trying to have a 50/50 male-female ratio despite an overabundance of female applicants and dearth of male applicants. This imbalance is projected to grow larger in the next four years.</p>
<p>I agree with goaliedad that ultimately the goal should be personal fulfillment rather than college admissions. But I'm amazed at how kids change and mature after freshman year -- you must know that after raising 2 others. A lot could happen and your son could find something very interesting and compelling that does make him stand out.</p>