Dirty Secrets of College Admissions

Parents Forum
41

<p>I was going to make the same suggestion as fireanddrain. I know from our school a kid (oops I meant to say lots of kids) with excellent SAT scores and good but not perfect grades can get into Vassar. It (or schools in that range) are likely to be on the reach school list for my younger son. He has no hooks, no awards, his main activity is playing violin in the orchestra (and he's merely competent no virtuoso.) </p>

<p>The other possibility is to look at some schools a little further away geographically from where you are especially the midwest.</p>

42

<p>I doubt there is any formula. I am sure my daughter's application to a top 10 school would have been rejected if that were the case. No guidance counselor to help her, and good ole mom doesn't know enough for daughter to take mom's advice. I thought her application sounded quite naive and unpolished. Still, the early acceptance letter came. It is such as guess as to what they consider when they have 1 place for every ten applicants. No idea why one got in, the other, who appears to look better on paper, doesn't. </p>

<p>Now where do we go on this forum to figure out how to pay for $50k on a teacher's salary? FAFSA says I will be paying more than half of my salary.</p>

43

<p>gadad wrote:
"I have the sense that in recent years, many top schools have given extra points to applicants from resource-poor settings without savvy GCs or private consultants, who nevertheless amass the credentials necessary to put them on an equal footing with other solid candidates."</p>

<p>But look at the way they selected the international students. This Vietnamese student said she's from Hanoi,
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/587832-college-list-confused-kid.html#post1061194788%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/587832-college-list-confused-kid.html#post1061194788&lt;/a>
went to High School in Singapore and got "special helps" from her counselor from Singapore:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/625880-international-applying-financial-aid.html#post1061584349%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/625880-international-applying-financial-aid.html#post1061584349&lt;/a>
Imagine Vietnam is a corrupted communist country... and Yale picked her up over many poor Vietnamese American students from public schools here.</p>

44

<p>
[quote]
He is just a bright kid, who studies hard, plays sports and video games on the weekends, and wants to go to a prestigious college someday.

[/quote]
If you can get him to change his desire for "prestigious" to a desire for "excellent", you will have solved the problem. Plenty of "excellent" colleges out there would love to have him. ;)</p>

45

<p>
[quote]
If you can get him to change his desire for "prestigious" to a desire for "excellent", you will have solved the problem. Plenty of "excellent" colleges out there would love to have him.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is probably true, although I cannot think of (and it really is too early anyhow) which ones to add to his hypothetical list. Next year, when we start the Parents of high school class of 2012 thread I will ask for help with this. </p>

<p>
[quote]
To be the best {insert his name here} he can be. Nothing more. He owes himself his best effort, not some admissions officer at some place where the people are somehow more important.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This does ring true to me, and somehow makes me feel better. He is currently a straight A student, in all honors classes, who works for his A's (stays up after us studying). He is not a "natural" test taker though. Time will tell. Thanks for the reassureance.</p>

46

<p>^ this is where applying to a need blind/no merit aid school will become unattainable and may be better to apply to schools with more of the latter. Not by design but my oldest daughter ended up getting accepted to a nice midtier school who gave her half of her tuition for four years for her huge commitment to the arts and community service. It was a huge opportunity that she ended up losing by not staying at the school for her own lacking grades, but the opportunity was there.</p>

<p>To the poster questioning what happened to the "simpler" times of the 70's: Are talking about the 70’s when the under represented minority was beyond under represented? Before need blind admission practices when the ability to pay got you into some of the best colleges money could buy? Beyond this, there is huge increase in applicants since the 70’s with this year being the most ever. There are many reasons why it’s not the 70’s and certainly not all of them are bad.</p>

<p>This said, I would love to be able to fully agree with Goaliedad who said,

[quote]
To be the best {insert his name here} he can be. Nothing more. He owes himself his best effort, not some admissions officer at some place where the people are somehow more important.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The thing is, as a society we often expect better than people's best. You can say it's good enough, but when the examples are that it's not (coaches fired, politicians demonized, etc) it's true that actions speak louder than words.</p>

<p>And while I have the experience of both a top but public high school with nearly 800 in a graduating class and that of a highly respected private with about 130, I can unequivocably say it has been worth the investment. And that's really how we've chosen to look at it. An investment in the future.</p>

<p>More than what college he gets into - (he has applied to 8 and while I agree his safeties arent exactly considered safeties by everyone, including some very smart CC folk) - the academic environment has developed incredible critical thinking and discussion/debate skills. There is something intangible about the small classroom vs the chemistry class of 45 my daughter suffered through. </p>

<p>My sister in law is a professor at a very selective CLA but when she was gettng her doctorate and teaching at a large state university, she said she could always tell the kids from the big box high schools because they just wanted multiple choice tests and you had to pull teeth to get them to say what they REALLY thought vs what they thought the teacher wanted to hear or nothing at all.</p>

<p>Lastly, it is my opinion that Rhine and Roses daughter did have an advantage:
[quote]
I thought her application sounded quite naive and unpolished. Still, the early acceptance letter came.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Our school is very big on NOT packaging students. They do make calls on kids' behalf and in every respect surpass anything we experienced at the big high school 10-fold, but having been in this business a long time and in one case was the president of the national assoc of college counseling up until about 2 years ago, we've been told there is a plastic feel to over packaged kids and they often get rejected because of it. Certainly there are rules to the exception and exceptions to the rules, but based on past results and our own experience thus far, I think they do know what they're doing.</p>

<p>As HMom knows, however, my S was rejected from Dartmouth in December. Still, what I know from here is that there were three kids from my son's school and 6 from a very reputable rival school across town who all applied ED. Of these 9, two from S's school were accepted, and 2 were denied and 4 were deferred from rival school. Of the two accepted, both are athletes and one is a trivecta - legacy of both Mom and Dad and world ranked skier and smart smart kid. Certainly this is just anecdotal, but our counselor has said that more and more Ivy's prefer the "hook" AND that if a school like Dartmouth had wanted all three, they would have taken all three from our school. Last year they took four from a class of 125 (but again, two were athletes and two were alumni's kids).</p>

47

<p>I have two children who went on to Ivy league schools. It was a very difficult process and it is getting even worse for my third child who is a Junior at a public high school. It seems as though the number of applications are going through the roof at elite schools. Has anyone used a private counselor to help them with the process? I was thinking about getting my third child one but it is quite difficult to find someone reputable...</p>

48

<p>It brings back memories of when I was a senior in high school oh so many years ago. I had already decided to go to state U with a bunch of my friends. Went with a jr friend to visit admissions rep from a highly rated (even then) midwestern LAC. When he discovered I was a sr and valedictorian (when there was only 1) and what my ACTs were, he offered me admission and a scholarship on the spot. Ended up going there. Things are far more competitive now.</p>

49

<p>Tango.. and did you remain friends with your Jr Friend? :)</p>

50

<p>For a long time, but we've now lost touch. She was only peripherally interested in the school and was an orphan living with distant relatives. She couldn't even have considered going there unless she had a full-ride which she got somewhere else. So no, she wasn't miffed that they were more interested in me. Her brother might have been, as he was in my class and wanted to go to this school, but he wasn't at the meeting.</p>

51

<p>I know it is much more competitive now. But does that warrant more effort from my part to provide my child with an opportunity to go to an elite college? Is it worth the money spending it on a private college adviser?</p>

52

<br>


<br>

<p>laxmid2010--Looks like you already have a better idea of what it takes to get into an Ivy league school than most private counselors probably would have!</p>

<p>I'm still puzzling over a public high school in an affluent neighborhood only having one GC...Affluent parents are the first ones banging the principal's door down when they see a problem that affects their kids' education and college prospects.</p>

53

<p>laxmid2010:</p>

<p>I think a lot depend on your particular situation. Sometimes I see the comments by hmom and I wonder if we even live in the same country. Her experience seems to be urban northeast while mine is rural Minnesota. For us it would make no sense because we would bring geographic diversity to most top colleges. My daughter's ecs were not common (nordic ski and the mules). Her (hmom) situation seems much more competitive and perhaps getting outside help would be smart. (I hope I have represented hmom in an accurate way.)</p>

<p>I think you should start by assessing your child, the ecs and where in the country he/she wants to go. Add in some colleges that are far away from you to help with being appealing. There are MANY terrific schools out there. Don't get too caught up in the top 20 or nothing frame of mind. To my way of thinking, you can do it on your own but if you are in a high pressure part of the country you may feel better with some consultations.</p>

<p>This website has a lot of useful information but it can breed anxiety. The services provided by the owners of this website are probably excellent.</p>

54

<p>
[quote]
I'm still puzzling over a public high school in an affluent neighborhood only having one GC...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>We have two guidance counselors (general, not college) for 9th grade and four GC's for the other three grades but only one BRACE (acronym for college counselor) for all 3200 kids. It is really beyond me how they get away with this.</p>

55

<p>Indeed my experience is pretty unique to NYC and East Coast prep schools, though there are pockets all over the Country with similar issues. As this article points out, kids like mine (white, affluent, mid atlantic, highly competitive private school) go into the process with a bias against them. I think Asian applicants from everywhere are similarly effected. So for us, additional elements are tacked on to the already horrendous process.</p>

56

<p>
[quote]
I know it is much more competitive now.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not convinced the data shows this.</p>

<p>I don't believe students are that much more intellegent than a generation ago. Average SAT test scores (across the entire population) haven't budged significantly. While the test scores of those admitted to the tippy-top schools have increased, I would suggest that this is primarily an indicator of better test preparation, as a whole industry of services have sprouted up. </p>

<p>And yes, there are more applicants than ever to a fixed number of Ivy League openings, but given the movement by the Ivies to move beyond the Biff and Muffy set in recent times, I would think that would make more openings available to the rest of us. And there are more schools nipping on the heels of the Ivies than ever, so we are not talking a fixed number of opportunities to get a top level education.</p>

<p>And a lot of the increase in applications is basically due to the fact that more people are applying to more schools than ever. When you had to fill out paper forms, it was a lot harder to apply to 8 schools. The Common Application has made college application almost like a spamming operation.</p>

<p>If we are going to say it is more competitive, please show some numbers and sound logic to use those numbers to support a clear definition of competition.</p>

<p>Now, I will agree that the rules of the competition are changing. Anything from the ebb and flow of AA to an ever-growing pot of money for athletics to internet-based instruction all pose challenges to institutions to provide a valuable educational experience to its customers. It is a two-way competition. Schools are constantly re-defining what they want to create (to meet an ever changing employment market) and what type of applicant they think they can turn into that output.</p>

<p>And to those who don't move with the changing game, yes the competition will seem more challenging.</p>

<p>And to answer the question posed later, if you know a private college advisor who is up on the current rules of the game, perhaps s/he can help you play more effectively. My question is how do you know that this person is effective? You can hire a chauffer or drive yourself. Do you know the chauffer's driving history?</p>

57

<p>My H's company provides college counseling as a benefit. I attended the webinar and spoke personally with 2 of the counselors. They could not answer the questions I had, though I suspect I came in much more informed than the average parent due to having been through it already with S, and because of CC. However, I was not convinced they understood our competitive high school environment and diverse state. For example, one of them was so impressed that D was taking regular Calculus as a junior. I tried to tell her that this was not at all impressive in our school, where kids are taking AP Calculus BC as freshmen. She didn't believe me. Now, these people were not college coaches, who might provide a better service for the informed. S's GF used one and I saw the materials she received. There were some nuggets in there, but probably not worth big bucks.</p>

58

<p>As a complete aside, my husband got something about a webinar from another trade group and when he looked into the speakers etc, his feeling was that if business were not already doing what was being proposed in this webinar, they were already headed to bankruptcy and paying for this thing was just going to get them there all the quicker. As they say.. consider the source.</p>

59

<p>Goalie, I don't think people are all claiming it's more competitive in an absolute sense... just that for your typical valedictorian of a good suburban HS with high scores and a mean tennis serve, it is not a sure thing that one or three or five colleges in someone's "top tier" ratings will admit this kid.</p>

<p>I think that there are many factors which are quite positive which are driving the perception that it's so much harder to get into college than it was in our day. So for sure this is not all bad. I've written before about the Val from my HS, who turned down a full ride from one of the seven sisters to attend a local commuter school. She was first generation college; her parents couldn't believe she'd want to leave town instead of taking the bus to college and live at home, so that's what she did. The GC urged her to apply to one "reach" school- which she did; but that was the end of it. </p>

<p>Nowadays her parents would have been driving her to advanced Mandarin classes by the time she was 5 to get her into that same college where she turned down the free ride- back then, who would even think of it? So the fact that so many talented kids from all over the country are setting their sights on schools far from home (both geographically and psychologically) is a great thing- yay for social mobility. But- it means that the kids who would have been shoe-ins at CMU and Brandeis and BC and Wesleyan back when, are now competing with all the really smart kids from all over the country and the world who don't neccessarily want to take the bus back and forth from school and write their college papers sitting at mom's kitchen table. They also want CMU and Brandeis and BC and Wesleyan... so everyone's got to ratchet down their expectiations while ratcheting up the number of applications in an increasingly less certain admissions situation.</p>

<p>And yes- demographics. Just more 18 year olds, in an absolute sense. And yes- budget pressure on state schools, particularly the non-flagships. The local school close to my childhood home did a great job churning out teachers and nurses and accountants and computer programmers and pre-meds. The social contract was clear- you signed up for your classes, you did your work, you attended lectures and labs-- you got out in four years with a degree, 3 years if you did summers. Now underclassman can't get into higher level classes, upper classman can only get priority if they're majoring in the subject; nobody can get into Organic Chemistry due to budget cuts. So I think kids and parents are taking a hard look and asking if 4-5-6 years at a second tier public is as good a deal as rolling the dice and shooting for a top tier public (not instate but out of state) or a private U where most everyone graduates on time. Can't blame them.</p>

<p>My own belief is that there are no secrets... dirty or otherwise... to college admissions. There are plenty of truths and truisms that people don't like; there is plenty of empirical evidence that people ignore, and there's tons of information out there that either supports or contradicts your own beliefs about your kids and the HS they attend... but no secrets. Certainly no dirty ones.</p>

<p>A few weeks ago we had a mom posting here asking if her kid should take a third SAT 2. Kid had been deferred from her first choice ED school. Turns out this school "strongly recommends" three SAT 2's and the Mom got a little defensive when people noted this. Apparently the kid was very busy this fall with other stuff and hadn't had time to take the test. OK- you buy your ticket and then you take your chances. But since the website, the application, and every admissions guidebook known to man points out that the school wants to see 3 SAT 2's--- can you really be surprised that your kid was not admitted without that third score???? And because your kid is busy? Like every other kid who applied wasn't busy???</p>

<p>So get a grip on reality before you start kvetching about dirty secrets and hiring private counselors. It's all out there.</p>

60

<p>My experience has been similar to HMom. Highly competitive prep, upper middle class/affluent student body, many opportunities. 100% of student body goes to 4 year college/university. We have two College Counselors for class of 120. 60 students/counselor - not bad. But the parents still need to be highly involved with the process. The counseling is very good - many meetings with the counselor both with parents and alone with student. Counselors have some personal relationships with college adcoms. They write amazing, personal recommendations. They really try to get to know their charges. This is exactly what I pay for with my tuition. </p>

<p>But I have a different beef with the counseling (and I know this is going to sound like sour grapes to most of you). My child would have been top 5% in any other public school; at her school she is just average. In a way, my private school has done her a disservice because her rank (even though the school does not rank) is just mid level. And don't think that adcoms do not judge all kids from the same school together and just pick a few to attend...they do. So the top 10% get in everywhere (and yes I know, for my school that is ivies) and the rest don't.</p>

<p>So while the colleges know the private school by reputation and from the counselors, we fight a different discrimination in the application process. </p>

<p>The lucky ones (like myself) have been through this before and have learned the ropes (again, thanks CC). We can navigate the application process ourselves and seek a higher level of help from the college counselors because we know what buttons to push. And when I try to help the "newbies" (especially at my school) they still suffer from "my kid is amazing; he/she goes to XXX prep; he/she has wonderful stats, ECs, scores, recs, etc; he/she will get into every college he/she applies to." Not so! But the only way they learn is by being shot down (as my D1 was the first time through this application maze).</p>