Dirty Secrets of College Admissions

Parents Forum
401

<p>Wow,</p>

<p>I am glad that I did not read this thread before S1 applied to colleges this fall. It would have depressed me into a catatonic state.</p>

<p>We did not play or know any of these game rules. Both my husband and myself are first generation immigrants from opposite ends of the globe and our exposure to the American education system started with our Ph.D. programs. </p>

<p>We only had a vague sense that you need good grades, good SAT scores and exciting ECs to make it to a top college. Even then, we did not enforce this meager "insight" (or, lack thereof) on our S1, since we believe (still do) that how he spends his time and rank-orders various priorities should be left entirely up to him - what! are we going to chase him around when he is all grown up and tell him how he should conduct his married life? ;-). </p>

<p>We thought that the best thing we should do is to provide intellectually stimulating environment that consists of endless dinner time family debates and crazy exposures to off the beaten track (read: remote and terribly undeveloped and UNCOMFORTABLE) foreign countries and cultures. </p>

<p>The result is a VERY meager EC portfolio, two years (HS freshman and sophomore years) entirely (no exaggeration here) dedicated to massive on-line computer gaming, and good, but NOT earth shattering GPA. That said, he along the way discovered his passion about all things related to global financial industry, which he fanatically pursues as if it were the most exciting computer game. And, he declares himself to be the happiest kid in his school.</p>

<p>Now that I read all these posts on CC, I feel it's a minor miracle that he got early acceptance from U Chicago - which he applied to because it's not a binding ED and it has one of the world's greatest economics departments (his passion). </p>

<p>We will see what happens with the HYP type schools he applied for RD. Truthfully, I think the odds are pretty bad - when I see some profiles of the kids who are applying to these schools, they all look like minor gods. Where do they find the time and energy to be the captain of all those clubs, and win so many national prizes? Our S1's ECs look like a baby step among those who set 100m world records. Besides, S1 has no hook: no legacy, no URM (exception: legacy at Wharton, which he is applying to - but I read somewhere that the legacy status is mostly for ED applicants and parent's undergrad history- mine is MBA).</p>

<p>We joke that if Harvard, for instance, has a quota for a few, truly happy kids on campus full of hyper competitive, over stressed kids recovering from the PTSD of college application, he will be in (actually, this is not entirely a joke: he mentioned in his main essay that he is considered as the happiest kid in his school). I think in all likelihood, he will end up at Chicago, not because he prefers it to HYP, but because that's what he is left with -after the early acceptance from Chicago, there was no point for him to apply to any safety school.</p>

<p>He did have one advantage: when it comes to testing, he is a minor genius. He is capable of getting perfect scores on tests without any preparation whatsoever, as long as the tests are not based on memorized facts. So, he got perfect SAT scores at the first try, and his grades were in decent shape since he scored perfectly on math and science, and did decently enough on other tests that require memorization - even without actually studying for the tests, you are bound to remember some of the things you heard during the class, right?</p>

<p>Now, for our S2, I am much smarter, and will be better prepared to help him along..... Even there, I will we will use the minimalist approach. I do believe that it's their life, and they should start practicing it from early on. Also I do not believe that going to a brand name college trumps all other priorities: though these schools may give young people an initial advantage, the value system of self reliance and self regulation I can impart on them will yield a better outcome long term. </p>

<p>Life is a marathon, not a 100 m dash. I wouldn't want them to peak early and exhaust themselves before the real game starts. Besides, I think being emotionally well balanced is a very important asset. In my industry, I see a lot of truly intelligent people armed with amazing education not doing too well due to the fact that their warped psyche gets in the way of them performing up their potential. So, between overstressed son with a Harvard degree and a happy one with a less prestigious degree, I would go for the latter, no exception!</p>

<p>Naive thinking? Maybe......</p>

402

<p>"I wouldn't exactly say Harvard (re #394) was a golden ticket for my closest friends. They have nice productive lives, but aren't doing anything earthshaking"</p>

<p>This is what my closest friends at Northwestern are doing:
1) Physician in private practice
2) CFO of publicly traded company, previously in banking
3) Part-time management consultant, works in husband's retail store
4) Lawyer specializing in trademark law
5) Owner of sports management firm that places celebs with advertisers
6) At-home mother of 3, one with special needs
7) Analyst in insurance industry
8) At-home mother of 2, won her city's Volunteer of the Year award
9) Fundraiser for U of Chicago
10) At-home mother of triplets for years, now went back to work at Morgan Stanley
11) Owns / operates own yoga studio in Canada
12) Prof of psych at a flagship state U
13) At-home mother of 2
14) Entertainment lawyer in LA
15) Pundit and author (name would be recognized)</p>

<p>All are living nice, productive, upper middle class lives, but only the very last one could be said to have set the world on fire.</p>

403

<p>
[quote]
None of the people on that list (#398) works at a McJob.</p>

<p>Out of fifteen, at least eleven (and it might be all of them) don't have a boss.</p>

<p>The odds of that degrade really, really rapidly as you go down in selectivity, prestige, endowment and SAT median. That's why.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You are crediting the Harvard education with their success. </p>

<p>Isn't it possible that Harvard selects students who would have been equally successful if they had matriculated elsewhere?</p>

<p>In fact, I believe there is a study which compares long-term earning power (or some other career related factor) of Harvard grads against those who could have enrolled at Harvard but obtained their college degrees elsewhere.</p>

404

<p>
[quote]
I am glad that I did not read this thread before S1 applied to colleges this fall. It would have depressed me into a catatonic state.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This entire thread draws and depresses me. I have a wonderful, funny, smart, academically driven and competitive high school freshman who I already feel is going to waste the next three years of his life pursuing academic dreams that he has little chance of recognizing (based on this and other CC threads).</p>

405

<p>For better or worse, here's a survey:</p>

<p>Best</a> Northeastern Colleges in the US By Salary Potential</p>

<p>Might be interesting reading for those considering taking on significant debt for that "golden ticket" education.</p>

406

<p>Hey fendrock -- You cheered me up. I saw Stony Brook pretty high on the list.</p>

<p>Okay, well it's not Dart.</p>

407

<p>
[quote]
This entire thread draws and depresses me. I have a wonderful, funny, smart, academically driven and competitive high school freshman who I already feel is going to waste the next three years of his life pursuing academic dreams that he has little chance of recognizing

[/quote]
Your freshman can get a great education and meet many wonderful, funny, smart students at a huge number of colleges and universities. Why stress and angst for the next 3 years? Relax and enjoy the next few short years. :) (I know my name is "anxiousmom", but my anxiety, when I picked my screenname so many years ago, was more about how we were going to pay for college than whether first child, DD, was going to be accepted at a college that would fit her well. We knew there were many, many fantastic colleges.)</p>

408

<p>As a researcher at heart, one has to remember very clearly that CC is just one source and to undermine a bar set by anyone because of something not yet known in the future is very short sighted. As I said somewhere else on here, when my son was a freshman it was all about mission trips, travel abroad, Cambridge summer program. Now some of those trips are considered resume fillers and/or only available to the wealthy and therefore overtly elitist. What will the real story be in four years (as a mom of a current freshman girl)? No clue and so you do what you can to engage them in the learning process and the WANT to achieve.. not to get in to some college, but to feel successful about their own efforts. I honestly think that this will be more of a determining factor in getting into schools than trying to understand a game that is changing all the time. Look at it this way.. if the economy doesn't turn around soon, all this need blind admissions and full scholarship/no loan policies of many of these top schools is going to have to go to the wayside. They cannot raise tuition to cover all of that and their endowments will only be able to take so much of a hit. It all works together and so... we adjust and adapt as the world changes and evolves. To make a plan today for something three years off, all I can say to that is I can barely get the laundry done for today!!</p>

409

<p>Note that survey, other methodological questions aside, is only of graduates <em>without</em> a graduate degree...you're going to get some interesting skews for those schools that send a high proportion to graduate and/or professional school.</p>

410

<p>the funny thing is, not knowing anything about all this brouhaha (sp?) about the importance of foreign travels and exposure a few years ago and shunning of mentioning anything like this lest the kid is viewed as a wealthy elitist these days, my son mentioned in his essays that he visited over 40 countries - not a main theme, but as a way explaining of how he became who he is and where his fanatical fascination with the international financial market came from. If he is rejected by all the superdy duper colleges he applied to for RD, now we know what sin we committed ;-)</p>

<p>The truth is, we are not a financially super elite family with houses all over the globe. We simply chose to spend DISPROPORTIONATE amount of our income on family travels, while maintaining a pretty middle class life style on all other things: cheap cars, $12 hair cuts and such</p>

<p>Go figure.... Dice has been rolled already for the first one. Onward with the second son.</p>

<p>(with all this new knowledge I am gaining from CC, I will be more strategic with the second one. Yet, looking back, would I have done anything really differently for the first one had I been armed with all this? I don't think so given who he is and what he is made of. But I think my second one is a different raw material, and this kind of forward thinking will help.)</p>

411

<p>Family vacations are not "service trips" that are no more than working a few hours during the day and partying all night. My son also briefly mentioned his travels in his essays, especially those having to do with community, but these trips were mostly due to family living abroad, a liberal transfer of frequent flier miles and an incredibly generous Aunt who is a teacher and wants to share unique experiences with her nieces and nephews. I think anything in context is better than some blathering list. I honestly think Ad Coms are not idiots in the least and hopefully recognize the resume built from money and connection and one built from passion for ideas and sacrifice of the wallet. Not that one deserves admission over another, but hopefully (especially in smaller schools) it is very much an individual process.</p>

<p>But hey.. I could look behind myself and see a trail of smoke blowing. seriously, until we get at least one or two acceptances coming our way I could be a mere lemming willing to follow the lemming in front of me right off the proverbial cliff! :)</p>

412

<p>Anxiousmom... such great advice!!!! As I said in my previous post, high school is a very important stage in our children’s development and should not be spent stressing over the successful implementation of an adult-designed plan to get in to a top-ranked college/university. If our children do the best they can in the most challenging classes they can healthily manage, while enjoying activities where they can explore their special interests and talents, then they should be prepared to find their best college "fit"... which may or may not be one of the most prestigious colleges in the country.</p>

413

<p>
[quote]
You are crediting the Harvard education with their success.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No. Success, in the sense of high-end outcomes, is largely a selection effect (smarter students). Lack of failure, meaning the absence of low-end, or in this case middling outcomes, has a tremendous amount to do with the Harvard credential and partly also to do with what happens at university.</p>

414

<p>"No. Success, in the sense of high-end outcomes, is largely a selection effect (smarter students). Lack of failure, meaning the absence of low-end, or in this case middling outcomes, has a tremendous amount to do with the Harvard credential and partly also to do with what happens at university."</p>

<p>Oh, I don't know ... the at-home parents among my sample (and I know at-home parents with Ivy degrees, whether undergrad or grad) aren't making any money. Isn't that what CC typically calls a low-end or middling outcome?</p>

<p>As for my friend who owns her own yoga studio, for example ... plenty of people without degrees from fancy-schmancy colleges -- or degrees at all -- own and operate yoga studios. Would you call that a low-end or middling outcome? I doubt she makes a lot, but she loves what she does.</p>

415

<p>The whole "golden ticket" phenomena is really about a few categories of jobs that are only recruited for at the top 10 or so schools. This was largely because historically, the sons of people in these jobs went to the schools. They were not all top drawer students like they are today, in fact HYP had a broad array of talent or lack there of going back decades.</p>

<p>Yet these companies and firms still march to these same schools every recruiting season. In my own firm I've made the argument that we need to expand the school list. Why? Because things have shifted so much.</p>

<p>There's more talent than ever at state schools because so many have been priced out of private schools as college costs rose much faster than inflation.</p>

<p>Next, there's my belief that HYP accepts the extreme candidate today--already extremely good at art, music, whatever--and these are not going to be the more well rounded kids we want for our jobs in many, many cases.</p>

<p>Have I convinced my colleagues? Some, but there's a lot of hold outs. Times are changing and so will "the rules."</p>

<p>As for stay at home moms, the majority of women in my graduate school class at Wharton were. These ladies married other MBAs in large numbers and chose to stay at home. In fact, trust me, peer pressure was to stay home if you can afford it. The ways in which I've been called a bad mother within my peer group can not be counted because I pursued a full on career. Actually, to many of the stay at home moms, their outcome was the most privileged of all, many have gotten to stay home and still live charmed lives because of the high earners they met at school.</p>

416

<p>
[quote]
But I think my second one is a different raw material, and this kind of forward thinking will help.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Always to be borne in mind: different students have different optimal processes, targets, and results.</p>

417

<p>Amen to the above...
I look at my own and think how was it possible to produce two so different individuals... ;)</p>

418

<p>Dartmouth looks ok on that list. :)</p>

419

<p>Dartmouth looks ok on that list...:)</p>

420

<p>
[quote]
"No. Success, in the sense of high-end outcomes, is largely a selection effect (smarter students). Lack of failure, meaning the absence of low-end, or in this case middling outcomes, has a tremendous amount to do with the Harvard credential and partly also to do with what happens at university."</p>

<p>Oh, I don't know ... the at-home parents among my sample (and I know at-home parents with Ivy degrees, whether undergrad or grad) aren't making any money. Isn't that what CC typically calls a low-end or middling outcome?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It depends on what the other options (and preferences) were. </p>

<p>Northwestern isn't chopped liver, but the outcome list you posted, taken as a whole, is distinctly lower-echelon than the one from Harvard a few posts earlier, in the same way that both schools have high and overlapping SAT score ranges, but with differences also being visible.</p>