<p>Well rounded vs lopsided (maybe this deserves another thread). I am picking up on what hmom5 posted about top tier schools with extremely talented students, but not very well rounded, which may be better for the real life. </p>
<p>I was at a 9th grade pre-dance party tonight hosted by a parent. In speaking with those parents I found out many kids at our school are nationally ranked swimmers, skaters, ice hockey players...and mine a ballet dancer (very good, but not SAB quality). These kids spend 20+ hours a week for their "passion." One ice skater's mom asked me what my D2 is going to do with her ballet? Her daughter wants to become a professional ice skater. But in mom's mind it is just a hook for her daughter to get into a top college. Most of those sports no longer have a season, they are all year round sports or ECs. These kids spend so much time on one true passion they have no time to pursue other interests. At the same time, many of those kids will never do anything with their passion after college. I am just wondering if our kids are missing out on many opportunities in HS because they are too focused on one passion.</p>
<p>In my defense regarding my "golden ticket" comment, let me explain further. I didn't necessarily mean golden in terms of financial security. I actually meant that by graduating from one of those elite schools (I mentioned top 20 universities, ivy league or top 10 LACs) that the student would have an abundance of choices available to him/her that may not be available to other students with "lesser" diplomas. </p>
<p>Not that every graduate will be able to attend their 1st choice graduate school or enter their top dollar job; and not that those who don't graduate with "elite" degrees won't also achieve their hearts' desires. But those with the choice diplomas will have a much greater chance on the road to their dreams. The "golden ticket" is more of a pedigree. Those with the pedigree don't have to sell themselves as much. </p>
<p>Case in point, myself. I graduated from UC Berkeley. As far as I'm concerned, it was a waste of four years (for me, not for every Berkeley graduate). The only thing I graduated with was a pedigree. But I had an easier time getting into grad school. And in the 30 years since, that Cal degree has opened a lot of doors. People assume something about me before I even meet them. If that's not a golden ticket, what is?</p>
<p>the "pursuit of the singular passion" , IMO, is as important, if not more, than the pursuit of academic excellence.</p>
<p>the drive, discipline, dedication that is involved in sports or other "true passions' serves one well in all aspects of life...be they academic, social, business et al.</p>
<p>The opportunities have been grabbed by the focused.</p>
<p>Funny thing is, with a Ph.D. and a wharton MBA, I am REALLY skeptical about so called "brand name" school effect in the job market and future professional success, while my S1 believes it is VERY important (hence the reason he applied to Wharton undergrad a couple of weeks ago). --- of course, if he thinks the brand is so important, he should have rounded his EC better, right? but this is another matter.</p>
<p>Perhaps, the reason for this difference between me and my son is because I am in the IT/high tech industry, and he wants to become a international financier? Is the financial industry really hung up on the undergrad diploma? I remember the former SEC chairman being just a high school grad....</p>
<p>I have to say that my kids attend schools in the category being discussed. I think they both think it is a "golden ticket" to their experience now and their chance to be the selves they want to be.</p>
<p>I don't think any of us expect an easy passage into solvent adulthood, nor do we expect the "name" to impact too much on their prospects.</p>
<p>However, the experiences they are having definitely does impact upon them.</p>
<p>For one thing, the level of academic rigor has forced each of them to continue stretching themselves. And they have met very interesting classmates. And interesting opportunities have come their way, too.</p>
<p>^^ My kid is having the same experience at an Ivy. My concern here is that some of the posters are narrowing the top tier in a way that could lead to unnecessary disappointment. There aren't just 3 or 4 schools that offer the academic rigor and interesting, motivated peers.</p>
<p>And I think the only "golden ticket" is to oneself, and that is the most reliable. </p>
<p>I must say, that this semester my community college students are so bright my jaw dropped. They introduced a discussion of the differences between monotheism, polytheism and monadism as represented in Hinduism with no prompts from me and had a lively discussion, too.</p>
<p>And I'm pretty sure CC is usually looked at as "way down the food chain."</p>
<p>Our school has a finer education than many four year schools as attested to by the many parents who have told me so.</p>
<p>As an aside, I have a feeling community college is going to come up a little on the food chain now that Jill Biden has stated she is dedicated to her students and on and on. I think the opportunity to extol the benefits of community college as a step to different schools or as access at all will increase.</p>
<p>However, one of the crunchers of today's numbers is the huge increase of the number of students applying to college in conjunction with the number of students graduating - the perfect storm if you will. As california has proven, the numbers are surely going to reach capacity and the graduate degree/professional degree is bound to become the next necessary step - if it hasn't already.</p>
<p>"Northwestern isn't chopped liver, but the outcome list you posted, taken as a whole, is distinctly lower-echelon than the one from Harvard a few posts earlier, in the same way that both schools have high and overlapping SAT score ranges, but with differences also being visible."</p>
<p>You must think that if someone randomly chose ten people from a an average state U, they'd be all working fast food counters, ringing up cigarettes at the 7-11, or mopping the floors. You seriously don't get that while top 20 schools (etc) do open doors, it's the people themselves who choose to walk through them, and a smart, motivated person will always wind up doing well? And that what someone makes isn't the measure of what makes a school "good"?</p>
<p>Let's play a little hypothetical game. Suppose that for the next 5 years, all the investment banks, mgt consulting firms, etc. all decided they weren't going to recruit at Harvard. Would that make the value of a Harvard education less? Would it drop in the ratings? Should it drop in the ratings?</p>
<p>I'm curious, since you mention investment bankers, I wonder where criminal behavior enters into this? Seriously, are the schools that some of these investment criminals attended responsible for their choices, greed, etc? Did the colleges' reputations open doors for them to proceed? If you're going to look on the bright side I think the darker side is equally compelling as an area of investigation, because what these kids learn along the way is more than x's and o's, a's and b's. And are schools contributing anything here?</p>
<p>I read an opinion piece on Middlebury's website version of their paper regarding their honor code and whether or not teachers should proctor exams due to the rampant cheating. It definitely becomes part of a culture. Where is that line where want crosses a line into greed or bending a rule become breaking it? Arent these moral and ethical choices? I think it will be interesting to get some info into what is being taught at this ethics class that Obama is making all of his senior advisors and entire white house staff to take.</p>
<p>Ultimately however I think a lot of it has to do with how you are raised, and I venture to guess that there are quite a few babyboomers who have no trouble destroying whomever to get what they want - not exactly role models I'd want my kid to emulate. But the problem is deeper. Some people don't even see it as ethically bankrupt. I mean, why else would these banks think paying themselves bonuses what the right thing to do with millions of taxpayer's money?</p>
<p>I might tell my tax attorney to look for good avenues that will save me from paying taxes, but I would never think to not pay them. I dont know if four years of college can fundamentally change all your morals and values that you had spent 18 years forming. On the other hand, if you were taught it was a dog eat dog world, you might be barking all the way to the top. :)</p>
<p>Or why people would buy things they can't afford? Maybe adults should start taking responsibility for their action. Maybe parents should teach their kids to be financially responsible before they become adults. They can start by not taking out 250000 student loan.</p>
<p>Fair question 40%. Name some crooks and I'll look up their bios. In my experience, the ivy leaguers on Wall Street tend to be boy scouts. There have always been culture clashes between different groups in the banks as Wall Street has always had many who got there by sheer hutspa as they say in NY, and not via an ivy education.</p>
<p>I don't believe Bernie Madoff attended any college:</p>
<p>"Oh, pleeeaase. Are you just bothered they make more money than you or just smarter than you."</p>
<p>I don't know. If a question is not punctuated with a grammatical marker does that make it a statement--and thus an accusation--or does it merely signify a lack of intelligence? At any rate, like Thomas More, I am not threatened by justice nor bothered by the moral bankruptcy of my fellow man; I just try to keep my wits about me and deflect evil as well as I am able.</p>
<p>Sorry for the out burst. I do not claim to have insight to the auto industry. But what I have read or heard is the problem is attributed to the greed of auto union. Is that really the case? I don't think so, it's probably more complicated than that. I think people feel good when they could blame someone or a group of people for the problem because that means there is a solution. There is a lot of blame to go around for our current financial melt down. It wouldn't hurt, if we as adults to start to take some ownership for it instead of blaming it on Bush, investment bankers, schools, teachers...We teach moral to our kids, to try to blame it on our society or on colleges we are just not owning up to our own responsibility to our kids.</p>