<p>Admissions committe</p>
<p>JHS- I graduated from college in the late '70's and none of my close college friends are SAHM. Some never married; some support a husband in the arts or the ministry; some have high powered and some low powered jobs but none opted out of the job market for kids.</p>
<p>However in my "other life" I know many women who left careers in law, marketing, banking, and even medicine to stay home with children. Plus women working in less lucrative fields who found they were earning negative incomes after child care and other expenses.</p>
<p>I graduated college in the 70s and same, none of my close college friends were SAHMs. Yes there were years even when though I am in lucrative field, I was working part time, and after tax didnt make that much after child care. But only a few years, and had I not worked then, I wouldnt be where I am today.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl's #476 should be required reading.</p>
<p>(signed) autonomous & flexible but not always lucrative but not complaining</p>
<p>The philosophy that I've tried to impart to my children is that working hard preserves more options than not working hard. When kids are young, most have no idea what career they will want to pursue; indeed, many enter college still not knowing. Precisely because the future is unknown in every way, it's nice to keep as many doors open to you as possible in areas of interest because you may end up making or having to make a different choice than you anticipated.</p>
<p>All along the way there is a flow chart-like process at work that separates out those who have ability and use it well, and those who don't. If you practice your chosen instrument, sport, or art form well, you can play for the better ensembles and teams, and exhibit your talents in the best venues. If not, you quit, or you keep playing but in the beginner band or jv team. If you've done your homework and learned your math and English well in 1st through 3rd grades, then in 4th grade you get to be in advanced math and language arts. That means that come middle school, if you continue to strive, you will be permitted to take algebra and geometry, as well as advanced reading and writing. Those opportunities, in turn, will mean you will be eligible to enroll in the honors and AP classes in high school. That chance, if you work hard, will prepare you well for the SAT, and give you the academic rigor required to be a reasonable applicant to any school or program in the country that you ultimately decide upon. If you don't work hard, then doors will be closed to you because of that. You can't take pottery and typing instead of AP Chem and Calculus and then expect that Harvard will come calling.</p>
<p>Now, at any point along the way you can adjust goals and priorities. You can decide to opt out, pursue something with less diligence, or try something new. (And of course, different children have different potential, so all of this is relative.) You may decide that a berth on the varsity sport team will require more work and commitment than you want to dedicate, but the point is you have the choice--it isn't thrust upon you because you lacked the required skill. Then if senior year you decide you want to apply to a 7-year medical program, you can because you've taken the hard classes you need. </p>
<p>The same applies to college. I believe that if you work hard and gain entrance to a top-rated college, you will have more options available to you while there and afterward than if you don't. You may decide to run for President, pursue a career in IB, or become a SAHM. The point is that many, many doors will be open to you. I doubt many IB firms recruit at community colleges, and no recent American President graduated from one.</p>
<p>I know parents who pride themselves on being laissez-faire, and promoting a laid back attitude in their children. Why should their children be unhappy or uncomfortable, or have to work too hard? Taking advanced math in 4th grade is unnecessary, playing on a travel team is too much work, and grades aren't important at all until sophomore year of high school so why stress about it? So all along their kids take the academic and EC easy road. Unfortunately, by the time these kids realize what they want to do, they are very limited in what they are able or prepared to do. One mother just asked me if I could suggest a "good school" where her D could get in and wouldn't "have to work hard." Hmm. I told her that the good schools that I know of are good schools precisely because you have to work hard to get in and work hard once you are in. That child, though very bright and talented, limited her options countless times by taking the easy, comfortable road. Now mom and D are waking from their stupor, only to find that maybe she should have taken harder classes, tried harder in swimming, etc.</p>
<p>I had been a SAHM for over 21 years and most of my friends are also SAHM's but some are also doing some freelance work or running small businesses out of their homes. There are quite a lot of SAHM's in our area of South Florida. Perhaps because the suburban community dosen't make it easy for a mom to do both. There is a lack of affordable daycare for preschool age babies/children and many other suburban vs. urban factors that lend itself to having a parent stay home with the kids (like staggered school times and bus schedules. We live 1.7 miles from the school but you must be over 2 miles to get a bus. Someone had to be around to do all the driving.)
Of my college and grad school friends though, I think that I am the only one who "retired" when I had kids. All of them work at least part time. </p>
<p>I do keep my licenses (RN, RNC) current though because one never knows what tomorrow may bring.</p>
<p>I agree with THEDAD and Pizzagirl's post!</p>
<p>My husband built something that required hours of 24/7 practically for a few years. That time is now paying off in terms of flexibility and money, but for almost 10-15 years he (we) had neither with any regularity.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The same applies to college. I believe that if you work hard and gain entrance to a top-rated college, you will have more options available to you while there and afterward than if you don't. You may decide to run for President, pursue a career in IB, or become a SAHM. The point is that many, many doors will be open to you. I doubt many IB firms recruit at community colleges, and no recent American President graduated from one.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Absolutely - no argument there. I guess what I get hung up on is the definition of "options" being seen only as "entrance into super-lucrative careers." That's why I gave the hypothetical example I did. If someone <em>wants</em> to be a minister, an actor, a journalist, and their college education prepares them well for those options, but their starting salary is less than the roommate who <em>wants</em> to be an i-banker and his college education prepared him well for that option -- well, why is the first a "lower-echelon" outcome and the second an "upper-echelon" outcome? Seems they both were well prepared for what they wanted to do.</p>
<p>Have you ever seen someone who dressed head-to-toe in designer clothing and thought they were All That? Maybe it's a young girl who had Louis Vuitton head to toe. And she thought she was portraying that she was All That because look, I have So Much Money I Can Dress Like This. And while she thinks she's All That, everyone who's really in the know cringes, because she's embarrassing to herself, and she's not showing the amount of taste she thinks she has. </p>
<p>That's very analogous to my reaction to someone who thinks that only the paths to IB / MC / engineering / law / medicine are All That. It's embarrassing and cringe-worthy, because they're not showing the discernment and sophistication they think they are. Why isn't someone doing what they want to do and being well-prepared for those opportunities not a high-echelon outcome? Maybe the art history major wants to be the curator at an art museum and pursues a course that lands her there. She won't make the money of her IB roommate, but so what? I'm really embarrassed on behalf of the person who thinks she has a "lower echelon" outcome.</p>
<p>"I'm interested in a little demographic detail. None of mathmom's Harvard friends seemed to have chosen SAHM status, and between my friends and my wife's friends from an equivalent rival university at exactly the same time as mathmom, there's only one woman who has been a SAHM. "</p>
<p>Off the top of my head, I could name acquaintances or friends with such pedigrees as Wellesley undergrad / Harvard MBA, Duke undergrad / WUSTL MBA, Princeton undergrad / Harvard MBA, Yale undergrad / Harvard MBA, and (obviously from my perspective) a few NU undergrad / NU or UChicago MBA's, who have chosen to SAH or perhaps go part-time and step off the track-to-the-top. Plus many others who are top 20 or thereabouts for both undergrad and grad degrees (Vanderbilt, Georgetown, etc.). It's not unusual at all in the wealthier suburbs here to have highly educated professional women who certainly were on the path to whatever in their careers who have stayed at home. I don't consider that a lower-echelon outcome. Their educations benefit them no matter what they do. Which is the antithesis of the "value of the degree is only the money you make from it," which makes me shudder.</p>
<p>seiclan, thanks for your post. I'm a SAHM for almost 21 years too. The reasons you list are among the factors in that decision. We have no grandparents or relatives nearby who could assist with driving or childcare, daycare and summer camps are exorbitantly priced, school start and end times are staggered by as much as an hour and a half, and my DH has always had a job that requires a lot of travel. It's encouraging to hear that someone else experiences life similarly, because otherwise I doubt myself. Just today I was wondering if the college degree I worked hard for is worthless. After all, it didn't give me the skill to figure out how to how to juggle the demands of both career and parenting!</p>
<p>My friends and I seem a bit older than the demographic here. We graduated college between 1970 and 1973. None of us were SAHM's, but none of us married into situations in which we could be.</p>
<p>All of us have done things in keeping with our core values which I would add as another independent variable to Pizzagirl's intelligent posts.</p>
<p>I am a college professor at a community college where I teach waves upon waves of immigrants, disadvantaged, and quirky kids to read, think and have cultural literacy. I find this very rewarding, and the life of a college teacher eliminated the need for paid help beyond nursery school except in the earliest years when I had unpaid, contractual leave.</p>
<p>Other friends are college teachers, appellate self-employed lawyers, part-time doctors, public school teachers and one is a rabbi.</p>
<p>We all feel passionately about what we do for its own sake, although we all value earning a living as well.</p>
<p>I hope my kids find their way into similar fulfillments. They both are at "golden ticket" schools, but I don't see the way as being easy for them because they are both very subjective people who are not that outer directed. One does want law, but she has public interest law in mind. My son is still figuring it out.</p>
<p>The academic rigor and opportunities he is having are causing him to go deeper to try to understand just what he will excel at and want to invest himself in.</p>
<p>We are not steering him toward any profession. Earning one's keep and contributing to society are the only values we are passing on, with an emphasis on both.</p>
<p>To the above posts of SAHM's: Yes. I do respect you. I hate the mommy wars. I am sure your intelligence and flexibility has illuminated your parenting and is valued by your entire community. I have not been in a financial position to consider it, so I have no idea if I'd make that choice. I certainly do not judge yours. I celebrate it if it works for you .</p>
<p>Yes, women need to support and value each other more. It's not easy being a woman, no matter what life choice is made. Moms who are at home may believe they've wasted their education and feel bad about sacrificing their careers. Moms who work can feel guilty about having less time with their kids or leaving them in the care of others. Moms who are perfectly content with their choice can still be given cause to doubt it when others judge or accuse them. In the end, we all try to make the best decision we can given the financial and emotional needs of our families and ourselves. </p>
<p>Mythmom, I don't think the entire community values stay-at-home-moms. That's not a complaint or a whine, but an observation. Frankly, I don't think the entire community values working moms either. There is animosity against both groups. We need to make it end.</p>
<p>I wonder if the decision to be a SAHM is affected at all by the educational level or geographical ancestry of one's parents. I grew up in an area where most grandparents arrived at Ellis Island, where it was extremely rare for a father to have a college degree, where not a single mom had any education beyond high school, but where all of the children of my generation were strongly encouraged to obtain a four year degree. I truly couldn't believe that I met classmates at my southern college who not only had mothers with a college degree, but grandmothers! </p>
<p>None of my female friends from high school continued working once their children came along and most still, at most, work part time even though the kids are teens or college age. I think this is because the goal for us was the degree, not the job it led to. Most of us were brought up with the understanding that the kids would be raised by a stay at home parent (the way we all were) and due to the rampant inequality in pay back in the mid-eighties, the obvious choice was for the woman to be that parent. </p>
<p>Looking back now, I've often told my dad that I feel like I grew up being told to get a college education because I could be anything I wanted, but once I gave birth all of the rules changed and none of that mattered anymore and it all came to a screeching halt. My H and I didn't even think about daycare - it would have horrified all of our family and we would have been treated like lepers. I was a very frustrated SAHM and I will encourage my Ds to work full-time if they choose to do so.</p>
<p>Sewbusy, I think that religious background also can influence one's decision. In the evangelical Christian community I've experienced a very strong bias toward SAHmothering (and to a lesser degree, homeschooling). Exceptions are made for single moms and low income women, but there is very strong disapproval towards women with young children who chose to work when they are perceived as not needing to. They are judged as materialistic and self-centered.</p>
<p>I might be younger than some of you and when my first child was born I happened to live in a country (Canada!)that gave me six months paid leave (family leave) plus six weeks maternity leave plus my unused vacation - kid no.1 was almost 9 months old when I went back to work part time and immediately then we have made a decision that baby no.2 is coming soon and then I will be a SAHM, which I , happily and unhapilly, was till youngest started school full time.
I work very limited and odd hours right now so many that do not know me up close and personal might get an impression that I am a stay at home mom (I carry a pager in my pocket, not on my belt:) ). I will not be able to work more hours until kids are basically out of the house, (schools and EC require intensive commute and H work schedule and travel is highly unpredictable), but when I go back to work full time, I will be able to pay that college tuition!!!
I never regreted the decision to stay at home with the kids. Home cooked meals, family trips, daily family dinners, clean house when everybody gets home, nice entertaining on weekends since I am not dead tired and unable to enjoy it. Most of all I have enjoyed getting to know my kids schools and enviroments they hang out in, friends they like etc.
Have to say though that the time before they both started school was tough, as they required every waking moment of my time.
As for my college degree - it has made me who I am today, it has allowed my to meet the man I fell in love with, it has allowed me to travel extensively before we decided to have a larger family (quite a few years after we married) and it will make my return to full time emplyoyment for "good bucks" when the time comes very realistic.
I have a daughter, so I know well that she might choose the same path I did once she has children. For now she is planning a very, very professional career that will not allow for "time away from work" for quite a few years at first. But she is still very young, things might change, and even if she sticks with her plan, she will have me eager to help. Like one of the previous posters, I did not have close family, not even extended family close by when kids were little. For my kids the situation will be different.
I am very close with women who are SAHM and with those who work. SAHM with kids (my world has a lot of childless couples as well) tend to be able to read more books, that is about the only difference I can see between my friends :)</p>
<p>Hm. That generalization about books doesn't work for me because I teach literature for a living, so reading books is my work!!!! I read tons of books, and always did.</p>
<p>Sometimes I stay up all night and go to work without sleep because I've gotten so involved with books.</p>
<p>And lately, I've written two books, too. But that only happened when Child 2 went to college.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know parents who pride themselves on being laissez-faire, and promoting a laid back attitude in their children. Why should their children be unhappy or uncomfortable, or have to work too hard?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Are the parents promoting a "laid back attitude" in their children, or do they have children who are laid back?</p>
<p>There are many parents who have posted because they are tearing their hair out over their inability to motivate their children. Many kids are stubborn and will not do the things parents tell them are in their best interest. They will only "work hard" on things that interest them, which may or may not include schoolwork.</p>
<p>After graduating from college, I worked in the oil industry until after my first son was born, then I became a SAHM until my youngest went to kindergarten. At that time, I started working a flexible part time job until they were all in upper grades. </p>
<p>I loved being with my kids when they were little, but found myself volunteering to the point that I may as well be earning a paycheck for the amount of time I spent on it. So, I now work full time.</p>
<p>All the women I live around graduated from 4 year universities, worked for a bit, married, had children and now stay home. That is the custom. Now that all the kids are pretty much grown, these women spend their days going to the gym, playing tennis (and taking tennnis lessons), going to lunch, going to Bible Study, going to Book Club, volunteering and puttering. The idea of actually going out and "working" is such a foriegn concept that I am considered an odd ball!!</p>
<p>I just couldn't take the idleness of being at home all day!! I am not a putterer, I am not a gardener, I am not a "lady who lunches", and I want to be paid for the work I do.</p>
<p>I don't know if it is a southern thing or a cultural thing, but girls (at least of my era) knew with a certainty that they would go to college, would marry, and would raise a family. Careers never came into it. It will be interesting to see how the daughters of my friends end up, if this new generation will "use" their degrees or become carbon copies of their mothers.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I just couldn't take the idleness of being at home all day!! I am not a putterer, I am not a gardener, I am not a "lady who lunches", and I want to be paid for the work I do.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is the kind of comment which is indicative of how many people assess the value of the SAHM.</p>
<p>Puttering around a garden all day does no harm to others, costs no one else anything, so why such disdain?</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to slam SAHM's at all. It just wasn't for me. </p>
<p>The difference I am getting though from reading this thread, is that SAHM's are the anomoly in much of the country, whereas, in my area, working moms are. I wonder why that is. Is it a cultural thing, a regional thing, etc?</p>