<p>I think one of the misconceptions people has is that a hired counselor, or any advocate (parent) is able or willing to "try" to get a kid into a place that they don't belong. I believe that the job of the "Master and Commander" is to give guidance to the kid- direct them to schools that would fit their lifestyles, their interests, goals and abilities. Then to give the kid guidance as to what it may take to be able to achieve those goals, then to assist in helping the kids find the best way to express or showcase him/herself to those who are making the decisions. </p>
<p>I imagine many hire counselors thinking that they can get them someplace they aren't qualified to be- but I think the good counselors probably take those people and help them to "find" the place that is suited for them both for "fit" which is both personal, financial and academic.</p>
<p>I never even knew Ivy's existed for regular people, and even when my kids became interested in some of them- I still didn't give it serious consideration because there are great schools within a few hours of us and why would anyone ever want to go far away and why would their mother let them? Then when we stopped by a school on our way home from vacation and went to the info session- I cried. They describe the kind of learning environment that I had always dreamed of for my children- and I knew that I would have to let go of my plans and let them chase their dreams wherever that may lead. At the same time, I had to educate myself and them on what it would take to get into these levels of schools-if they would be able to achieve their dreams; because "just loving to learn" isn't enough to get you into a top school- you do have to have the whole package.</p>
<p>I'm glad I did the research, my kids have grown in tremendous ways- taken risks that I as a classic "underachiever" would never have encouraged them to take. I read all the books, read cc so that I could guide them. I am a stay at home mom- I can do that. My friends who work- needed help- someone to guide their kid, help them stay on the timing track when it came to applications and to understand the process.</p>
<p>I believe that if you can't afford it- there is plenty of information out there and if you can- it doesn't mean you should just leave it all in the hands of someone else. Nobody will ever have the same vested interest in your kids as you do. </p>
<p>I do believe as far as curriculum- if your are aiming for the top schools that you should not "take the easy way out" for some that means taking 5 or 6 ap's and for some that means taking 1 or 2. </p>
<p>Just my opionion...which by the way is not well recieved at this house these days!!</p>
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It is the kid who wants to take and belongs in the highest level class, but will likely be a B+ or A- student who has the dilemma. What should he do? Our D is like that, and she's chosen to learn more even if it means a lower GPA. Would this then be the type of student who could be helped by professional packaging? Someone who could shed light for the ADcoms on how demanding the AP's are at our school, etc.
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<p>I think that the hired GC cannot talk about the school's grading policy. What the hired GC CAN do is steer your D towards schools that will appreciate her desire to learn more even if it means a slightly lower GPA. That is unlikely to include the schools that accept under 15% if there are a lot of B+s, because they have at least twice as many applicants who have both the courses AND the grades as they can admit. The hired GC can also help your D effectively present herself as the lover of learning that she is.</p>
<p>bclintonk: so much info, but around here not much to back it up....last year, kids with lesser rigor in curriculum, lower class rank, lower SAT/ACT accepted over kids with more rigourous curriculum yet lower UM GPA because they earned B+ in AP's rather than A-'s in regular/honors; same school.........facts, not 2nd hand, 1st hand. I applaud UMich for the transparency but they should put their money where their mouth is so to say.......</p>
<p>Reading all this about packaging and ivies and parents having tug of wars with their kids over which name brand university is best is like I'm living a Twilight Zone episode. Ivies aren't the be all and end all. If it's all about the country club and who you can smooze with over cigars then fine, but the vast majority of employers don't care one iota what school is emblazoned on that piece of paper. In fact, the way things are now days it doesn't matter the major nor, short of a neurosurgeon, it doesn't matter that your kid even have that sheep's skin (here come the Walmart/McDonald comments but you know it's true). If you think you need a BMW with all the pretty packaging rather than a Chevy to get you from A to B then fine, it's your money, go for it. What's that about putting lipstick on a pig - it's still a pig and nothing is going to change the GPA, or the test scores, or the ECs, or the letters of rec, or his personal interview, or his try-out for sports, or his fine arts audition, or the dozen other things colleges look at. Face it, if the numbers aren't there, the application is going into file 13 and the essay will never be seen. </p>
<p>Why would parents want to have tug of wars with their kids? Be eternally thankful the kid wants to go to college rather than hang out in your basement playing video games the next 30 years. Why push him to the school of your choosing or the choosing of some professional who doesn't know or care about your kid other than he's a paycheck? Let kids go where they want. It's their life, not yours. Sure, it might take asking them 15 times a day if they got x,y,z completed on their application but it's their application and it's they who will be living there the next four years, not you.</p>
<p>In reply to post #138: I don't claim I know what Stanford is looking for. Indeed, if you read my post (#118), I said that as interested as I got in college admissions, I found trying to figure out what sort of essay is good has been the one piece of the puzzle I know I've never completely figured out. Sometimes though you can figure out why an essay did not work. </p>
<p>Here's an example--I don't know if it still does, but U Virginia used to ask a question about the historical person you most admired. The #1 answer by a VERY wide margin was Thomas Jefferson. He founded UVa and I guess some kids thought that made him a good choice. Unfortunately, lots of kids had the same idea. If you have already read hundreds of essays saying why he was the historical person the applicant most admired, I'm sure it's going to take an extraordinary essay to impress you. But I can see the kid from an out of state high school who comes up with the idea of writing about Thomas Jefferson and has no idea that his idea is a very common one. The SAME essay in response to the SAME question from a college which wasn't founded by Mr. Jefferson would probably work better. </p>
<p>A few years back, there was an episode on "Gilmore Girls" in which the girls talked about whom they would write about in answer to a similar question--except that the person didn't have to be historical. Now, remember this is a few years back. Rory goes on and on about how she's doing an essay on Hilary. The girls then go to a panel about elite college admission at Chilton, the all girl prep school they attend. The rep from one college jokingly says "Whatever you do, don't make me read one more essay about Hilary Rodham Clinton in answer to the question about whom you most admire." All the girls laugh--except Rory, who is absolutely stunned. Yep, it's fiction, but I think there's probably some truth in it.</p>
<p>I keep seeing how essays should be unique but students tend to pick the same topics. My son has been a military kid since he was concieved. He's written about that a few times and I would imagine he'll consider it for college essays. So, is that too common? Or is it a hook ("hook" means what makes a student stand out, right?) He's also a gay and he writes about that as well. I guess the larger question is, short of hiring or having a GC who knows, how would a student know if their essay is not unique enough? I certainly wouldn't know, I was only thinking in terms of quality. </p>
<p>Also, can a student recieved both need and merit aid or do schools just give one? I'm starting to feel nervous about having encouraged my son to look at schools that he would need merit aid to attend when we may also qualify for some based on need. I was calculating him getting both and it dawned on me that I have no idea if that is done.</p>
<p>I still submit that it doesn't cost X thousands of dollars to determine what constitutes a trite, badly written essay vs. a good one. And I'm glad Stanford was used as an example. That's where we met the adcom who gave us what I thought was the most useful advice on the planet re: admissions:</p>
<p>1- It's an application, not a subpeona. When we ask about activities, awards, leadership, don't pile on everything you've done since fourth grade "in an effort to be complete and accurate". PLEASE leave stuff out. We know you're busy. Put down the top few things you really care about and edit everything else out.</p>
<p>2-Thicker the file the thicker the kid.</p>
<p>3-A great essay can't get you in; a bad essay won't keep you out. If you have everything else we're looking for and your essay isn't great but you've proof-read it and have no obvious typos then don't sweat it-- we want you. If you don't have what we're looking for, you could have your essay ghost written by Faulkner or Hemingway and it's still not going to matter.</p>
<p>I think this discussion reflects that we live in a consumer society and that we as parents are very vulnerable to the message (from whatever the source) that anything you pay for by definition is better than something that is free. Do you really think a so-called expert can determine in the course of a meeting or two what makes your kid tick vs. good old mom and dad? Do you really think that if your kid writes poorly but turns in a glowing, exceptional essay, there won't be other clues in the application that suggest that the kid had professional help... like a comment from a teacher "despite his difficulties in English Comp, Joey made up for it by a keen interest in contemporary fiction and poetry"?? And finally- if some pro tells you that tennis is bad but horseback riding is good, are you going to make your kid quit playing tennis and try to find a stable within 30 miles of your house???</p>
<p>And why all of a sudden are the posters who have previously alluded to difficulty paying their EFC or needing high merit awards throwing money around on college counselors? Doesn't it come out of the same pocket? Save your money on tuition or to pay for Lab fees once your kid gets to college.</p>
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<p>I believe we will need the private GC in a few years just to find the right fit for my son and take the parent/child tug of war out of the equation.<<</p>
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<p>I especially agree with the above as some of the better reasons for hiring a private college counselor.</p>
<p>Blossom, There is a fixed amount of money in our family. But I have wondered if it would be smart to use a portion of that money to increase my son's odds of qualifying for merit money. Spend money to make money, I suppose. For me, it's too much like gambling and I hate gambling. So I kept the money "safe." Then the market bit the dust. We'd have more money for his school if we'd put it in our mattress and that is not a joke. </p>
<p>In otherwords, we try. We really do. We're pretty smart and so are our family members. But we've made mistakes too. Often the advice I read is contradictory. Essays can make the difference; essays never make the difference. The schools themselves give clues but how am I supposed to know if "interview recommended" means "we admit 6% of students who do not interview, 16% who do" (MIT) or it just means "if you're in town, why not but it's really not a factor." </p>
<p>So, yes, I know the difference between a well written essay and a poorly written one. Do I know if the topic is likely to be one that the person reading has read a variation of 200 times already that year? No, I don't. Unless the Standford officer wants to put it in writing that my kid's chances are are in no way improved or lowered so long as he hands in a "good" proof-read essay with no typos, then I'm going to ask questions about who to make his essay stand out or at least not get in his way.</p>
<p>I think the biggest advantage our counselors have provided us, beyond knowing my kids' academic, ec record, was exactly the above. It somewhat took us out of the equation. I say somewhat because there were schools that would have been on his list regardless and there were others whom we knew very little about beyond name recognition. </p>
<p>However, when it comes to essays, while I think originality is good, it is very difficult to tell an 18 year old -- who doesn't have nearly the life experience that adcoms do -- that their topic is unoriginal. OK.. you can tell them that, but there is something to be said for youthful innocence. This said, when we went to visit Tufts, the Adcom there said pretty much what was said on Gilmore Girls (I used to love that show) when he said while going to Africa is great, he was pretty tired of reading the "same" essay to the point he swore everyone hooked up a dsl line directly to his office while sitting around the campfire. And this is why my son did not write about his trip to Africa last Christmas. However, self discovery is self discovery even if, as a 35 year old, you've seen it/read it a thousand times. While there is so much talk about packaging kids for admissions, what we heard over and over again is that adcoms know professional packaging when they see it and are, for the most part, unimpressed -- especially when it's all pretty paper with no gift inside.</p>
<p>Pug-- I hear you and I empathize. However- your son will get zero merit money at MIT and you don't have to pay me a nickel for that word of wisdom. So what exactly could a counselor tell you that would be "worth it"?</p>
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<p>an 18 year old -- who doesn't have nearly the life experience that adcoms do <<</p>
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<p>Of course, not all adcoms are older. For some, this is the first job they've had since graduating from college. Some do it for a few years and then move on to grad school or law school or whatever.</p>
<p>blossom, I was not speaking only of MIT, I was using that as an example of a school where the "recommended interview" makes a difference. I know MIT does not offer merit aid but I didn't always know that. Then people here pointed me to collegeview.com, common data sets and more. </p>
<p>What could a counselor tell me that would be "worth it?" I don't know what I don't know! Hence, thoughts of hiring someone who does. Thoughts, not action.</p>
<p>Modadunn, If my kid had been to Africa, I would encourage him to write about it. How many American high school students have been to Africa? I can tell you how many from my son's high school; none. It's exactly that kind of information that periodically shakes my confidence in guiding my kid through this. Having a kid in South Texas who has set his sights on college in New England is a bit of a challenge.</p>
Taxguy, the TOP kids -- the ones the Ivies are looking for - are the ones that can get A's in honors courses. </p>
<p>I would not agree with you on the kid who can get the B's in those honors courses -- if that kid is motivated, then he/she should go for the honors and accept the B's, but also aim for a college that is a good match of their abilities. Not all kids are Ivy-caliber, and I think that the student who challenges themselves and then ends up in a college that is a good fit for their abilities is better off in the long run than one who takes an easier path. The problem is that the honors courses also help prepare the students for the higher expectations of college. The kid who took AP calculus in high school and got a B is probably going to be better prepared for college calculus than the kid who took the easier route and has an A in a high school pre-calc class.</p>
<p>Now if you are talking about C's or D's that is another matter - then I would say that the student should be in the easier course, because they are not ready for the challenge. But I think that in general, a "B" represents (or should represent) that the student has been capable of learning most of the material, but may have had to work to get there. An A, unfortunately, can mean that the material is too easy and the student didn't learn much that he/she didn't already know, nor did the student acquire any good study habits to prepare for more difficult work ahead. </p>
<p>I know that parents want to see their kids get into the "best" colleges.... but I personally think its better for a kid to get a strong foundation in high school and attend a middling college, than to take the easy path through high school and then flunk out of a more selective university because they are unprepared for the demands of the top-ranked college. </p>
<p>Again, for the kids who really are appropriate candidates for Ivy League schools, this would never be an issue - those students can and well excel in the most challenging courses their high school has to offer, which is exactly why those colleges ask whether the student has taken the most challenging curriculum.</p>
<p>About financial aid...you'll only get what you need. The total aid (merit+need) will equal your need. So if you need $35K (as determined by FAFSA and Profile) and you got $20K in merit, the need based part will only be $15K.</p>
<p>Merit really works best for those with very little need. Merit can be higher than need. But if merit comes in below need, you will never receive more than determined need.</p>
<p>It's like an algebra formula ... IF Merit>Need, then Merit OR IF Need>Merit then Merit plus (need-merit)</p>
<p>Blossom, I am telling the absolute truth when I say that I know that in ONE kid's case the essay is what kept him out of Stanford. Maybe things have changed--or maybe the admissions officer who made the first cut for his region used different standards than the one you heard speak. (The way Stanford admissions used to work, each reader got a stack with a set number of applications and had to weed out a certain number in the first round. How they did that was pretty much up to the individual reader unless the file was "flagged," athletic recruit, math prospect, legacy, etc. ) I don't know. You may also remember how upset berurah(sp?) got when a Yale admissions officer said her son's essay wasn't good enough to admit him. And again, maybe times have changed, but Ted O'Neill at UChicago used to send out notes long before official decisions to kids whose essays were outstanding--about 6 to 8 a year. I've never heard of a kid getting one of those notes and then getting a rejection. On the flip side, I know the dean of admissions at Duke, if it's still Gudendag or something like that, thinks the essays aren't worth much. </p>
<p>Again, you seem to think that parents who would consider hiring an expert are trying to get kids who don't have the goods into a top college. That won't work. Nobody is claiming it will. What we are sayiing is that counselors can help kids who do have the goods to be among those in that group who get thick envelopes. There will always be kids with the goods who get thin ones--a fact you seem unwilling to admit. A private counselor who reads everything about admissions may remember the same article I read a long time ago in which the then dean of admissions at UVa joked about the number of applicants who named Thomas Jefferson the historical person they most admired and basically said "Don't be dumb enough to send us another one." That's NOT the same as hiring someone to ghost write the essay for you.</p>
<p>How do YOU explain Andison 's experience? How does a kid go from getting rejected at every college he applied to one year and then getting into MIT and receiving a merit scholarship at Brandeis the next? If essays don't matter and private counselors can't help, then what changed? He didn't retake any standardized tests. He used the same teachers' recs. You can say--I did at the time, if you read the old thread--that he made horrible choices in choosing his safeties, but Andi and her husband are very smart people and it wasn't obvious to them. It also wasn't obvious to his public school guidance counselor at a very, very good public school. BTW. Andison is a very, very smart kid and he put together his own college list--and got rejected. Do you think using a private counselor the first time around would have been more damaging to his ego than all those rejections? </p>
<p>I can tell you what Andison did--he applied to different colleges and HE WROTE DIFFERENT ESSAYS. Nobody wrote them for him.</p>
I don't think that "packaging" is the answer. </p>
<p>I do have a daughter studying at an Ivy caliber school who did NOT take "the most challenging" curriculum at her high school... but she did take a lot of AP & Honors courses and had a very high GPA (within the top 5 students of her graduating class of about 150). She also challenged herself in some different ways that set her apart from other students; that is one reason that she was unable to fit some AP's into her schedule, and it was explained very clearly on her college apps. I think an "explanation" is different than "packaging" -- it is simply taking what is there and casting it in its best light. A private counselor might be able to help a student do this... but I think the student and family can potentially do a better job on their own. If anything, I think that the private counselor is more likely to steer the student to a different college, because it is in their professional interest to avoid taking big risks in the application process. </p>
<p>I would note that even though my daughter bypassed some challenging courses and still got accepted to a top college... it was not without penalty. My d's college required more math and science for general distribution requirements than my d. was ready for -- my very hard working daughter has now managed to fulfill those requirements with A's in the college courses, but there were a lot of nights spent working on problem sets until 3 am. In other words, she took a couple of short cuts during high school but in the end she had more catching up to do than her classmates. </p>
<p>But keep in mind that the goal for your daughter should be a good fit college. It will not help your daughter to land in a college full of superstars where she has to struggle just to stay afloat. And of course the choice is NOT between Ivy League and community college. We've seen students at CC turn down spots at Yale for schools like Rhodes or Vandy, and we know from subsequent reports that they found their less-famous schools to be challenging and probably had opportunities there that would have been out of reach at the more prestigious schools.</p>
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Then when we stopped by a school on our way home from vacation and went to the info session- I cried. They describe the kind of learning environment that I had always dreamed of for my children
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I wonder what school this was. I guess I am too cynical to be so impressed by any school. Husband and I feel the Ivy we attended was no better than a good state university. We know kids who have left HYP because, though they were doing well academically, they couldn't stand the drinking culture. I have nothing against Ivies, but I don't see much of a difference in terms of students or instruction when comparing Ivies with other top schools.</p>
<p>Rodney notes,"bclintonk: so much info, but around here not much to back it up....last year, kids with lesser rigor in curriculum, lower class rank, lower SAT/ACT accepted over kids with more rigourous curriculum yet lower UM GPA because they earned B+ in AP's rather than A-'s in regular/honors; same school.........facts, not 2nd hand, 1st hand. I applaud UMich for the transparency but they should put their money where their mouth is so to say......."</p>
<p>Bclintonk, frankly, I think most schools, such as University of Michigan just lie. Yes, maybe Michigan does really take course toughness into account;however, I have seen a number of schools plainly lie when I took the admission officer to task. This is particularly true for scholarships. We have seen it time and again with our high school graduates. It is very disturbing.</p>
<p>Also, I will agree that if the kid wants to take the tougher courses,, it might be better preparation for college. No one is denying that. However, for college admission and especially scholarship qualifications, you would be very surprised how often, even amoung some top schools, unweighted GPA is used.</p>
<p>I'll say it again, a B+ with all honors isn't as good as A's with all regular courses. From what I have witnesed, I stand by this.</p>