Dirty Secrets of College Admissions

Parents Forum
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<p>Sorry Jonri, but in my neck of the woods people hire counselors to guide kids who don't "have the goods" every day of the week. It's all very altruistic to say that we hired a counselor, paid through the nose, our kid is now at Adelphi and the counselor was so invaluable helping us with the nuances of the process but guess what? I don't believe those parents. And you don't either.</p>

<p>Since a very large percentage of colleges have very high transparency around their admissions process, you will surely agree that a kid who is over the admissions bar at U Mass or Rutgers would be poorly served by paying for the advice that is available via Google. And I don't think that last year's Intel winner or Physics Olympiad winner needed to pay a lot of money to hear that MIT also cares about your verbal SAT score, as witnessed by their median stats (also available on their website and via google). So it seems that the kids at the very tip of the heap don't need to pay for free information.</p>

<p>So, at least in my area, it's the people who tried so hard to produce a Rembrandt or a Mozart or at least a Yo-Yo Ma who realize late in the game that their kid is a nice, all around good kid with middling grades and middling scores and nothing particularly unusual about their fondness for hanging out with friends and IM'ing each other all day. These are the folks who dig deep into their college funds to pay for private counseling. And you betcha they don't want to hear that little Jonny or Susie can get into Adelphi or Hofstra or College of New Rochelle.</p>

<p>We've got friends who paid for the nose for the high end "package" which starts in Sophomore year. Kid is at Baruch and happy and doing great, so in the end, that's what counts. But there were a lot of tears along the way, and I guess the parents really did need to hear a "professional" explain that Bowdoin and BC and Middlebury were not going to happen. So after paying whatever the "total package" costs, they can't afford the EFC at the privates their kid did get into-- so he's at City College which is perfectly fine, but not what they had planned. </p>

<p>But the third tier privates don't meet full need; they were unwilling to look in Arkansas or Oklahoma or places where Northeastern kids are not overrepresented so the Adcom's could have cut the kid some slack. Unhuh. So what exactly did they get for all the dough? </p>

<p>That's why I'm skeptical. I'm thrilled to hear that others have positive experiences and get their money's worth. But I still chuckle to hear the urban legends that pass as truth about the B student with middling scores who got into Dartmouth because the counselor took his hobby? obsession? pathology? with some computer game and turned it into a long standing passion for medieval history and only an "insider" would know that Dartmouth was trying to bolster its medieval history department that year.</p>

<p>Can I sell you a bridge?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I guess I am too cynical to be so impressed by any school. Husband and I feel the Ivy we attended was no better than a good state university. We know kids who have left HYP because, though they were doing well academically, they couldn't stand the drinking culture. I have nothing against Ivies, but I don't see much of a difference in terms of students or instruction when comparing Ivies with other top schools

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<p>Could not agree more. My husband and I, both professors who have taught at both Ivy and State, entirely share your view here. Same students, curriculum, professors, classrooms. Okay, sometimes are the facilities better (though the worst classroom I ever taught in was at Yale, when the portable board fell on me..). What one is buying is not a different education per se, but the psychological benefits, and maybe political/social benefits, of prestige.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
..about the B student with middling scores who got into Dartmouth because the counselor took his hobby? obsession? pathology? with some computer game and turned it into a long standing passion for medieval history and only an "insider" would know that Dartmouth was trying to bolster its medieval history department that year.

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<p>Blossom, I know you've heard it before, but I just have to say I always adore the way you write. It just cracks me up.</p>

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<p>Starbright, you are sweet. And I bet you know folks who believe %^& like this.</p>

<p>Does anyone really think that if Ford Models took me on as a client they could turn me into Carol Alt or Christie Brinkley or whomever today's young thing was??? Their models are successful because they pick and choose among who they'll represent, and not because their version of packaging is significantly different than one of their competitors. (although their marketing materials to sweet young things and their vulnerable parents would suggest otherwise.)</p>

<p>And right now there's a kid sitting in a dorm at Drexel looking across the way at Penn thinking, "I could have been a contender".</p>

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<p>
[quote]
...because the counselor took his hobby? obsession? pathology? with some computer game and turned it into a long standing passion for medieval history and only an "insider" would know that Dartmouth was trying to bolster its medieval history department that year.

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</p>

<p>Okay, that actually made a laugh loud enough to scare my pug. You should start a snopes-type board for college urban legends and tall tales. Or write a book. I would buy it!</p>

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<p>Quote:
Or cares more about learning than chasing a GPA.
Precisely!</p>

<p>"I am in this boat with my D. She has test anxiety (and every other kind of anxiety) issues, but refuses to take regular college prep classes just to boost her GPA. We are perfectly happy with her B+ in almost all honors and APs"</p>

<p>I'm in the boat just across the water. My son does not suffer from test anxiety but refuses to take all honors and APs because he wants to enjoy his life while he goes to high school. He doesn't even excel at the college prep classes unless he respects the teacher, which proofs out to maybe 60% of the time. He does well enough, but he has no patience for the grind. I respect his choices, he keeps us informed about what is what in his life, he's an extremely popular kid whose classmates respect him for his straight shooting and I have to admit, from the meetings I've had with each of his teachers I pretty much agree with his assessment of their abilities. He will end up with incredibly strong teacher recommendations from the couple of instructors whom he favors because they clearly recognize his independent intelligence and generally amiable demeanor, and he has no desire to lay his tread on the Northeast corridor (he attends a highly regarded prep school that turns out a pretty good business that way, but he's not playing that game). And the best thing of all, he's just a plain, good old happy kid. But he came out that way, grinning like the buddha.
Also, I think you all overestimate the value of the Ivy League as a monolithic reference point. Off the east coast it's not really an overwhelming presence in most opinions. Internationally, of course, it carries undue clout, but that's to be expected--after all, they're foreigners, what do they know (that's meant to be a joke by the way).</p>

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<p>I'll give a plug to the CC folks here, who never get mentioned despite being our hosts! I know a family that approached them for help with unrealistic college goals for their child. They were told it wasn't going to happen and offered an immediate refund.</p>

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<p>No interest in your bridge, Blossom. </p>

<p>I know people who have kids who do have the goods who hire private counselors. For example, there's a somewhat famous counselor who works for a private school. A dad emailed her and asked for a rec for an adviser to help with his son's essays. The parents are professionals who chose to send their kids to the public school in the small Southern city where they live. She suggested that they drive a few hundred miles to come to a special admissions event the private school where she works was hosting. Normally, outsiders don't get to attend, but having heard how hard it was to get solid info about top schools at his high school, she invited the boy and father. They learned a lot from the presentation. </p>

<p>The big help though was the essays. She ripped his kid's first efforts into shreds. It was rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. Finally, she said "good--submit" He got in early to a college in the HYPS group. I sincerely doubt the college had a CLUE that any "packaging" was involved. In truth, the only packaging was that someone who had read lots of essays from kids at a top private high school and seen the results gave the boy advice that just wasn't available at his public school. Dad had no trouble admitting that the essay his son ended up submitting was a much better piece of writing than the one he would have submitted with no advice. But every word of it was his own--the adviser didn't write it for him, she just acted as a sounding board, but a sounding board who knew a lot more about the process than anyone in his son's high school. </p>

<p>Did it matter? Who knows? But I assure you that the boy and his father both think it did. It cost dad about $1,000 or so ( a number of years back) and he thinks it's money well spent. And knowing what happened to the kid who applied to Stanford, I really wish his parents had done the same thing because I honestly think the outcome might have been different. His essay would NEVER have gotten past that woman--NEVER!!! </p>

<p>The other group in my neck of the woods :) (NYC) who use private counselors are foreign parents. The US system is WAY beyond them and it is just too much for them to master--and these are the professionals, not the parents who have menial jobs. Many of their kids go to Stuyvesant, Hunter, Bronx Science, etc., and the counselors there are just not going to spend 20 hours with one kid's parents explaining what liberal arts colleges are or why it isn't all based on test scores. In one case--I interviewed the kid as an alumni interviewer--a poor family splurged money on a counselor because the parents speak very little English and it was worth it to them to have someone explain everything in Korean. The Korean counselor came up with a list of schools which included some good Midwestern LACs that a Korean-immigrant parent would never have heard of. Maybe their son's public school guidance counselor would have too--but they couldn't talk to her in their own language . </p>

<p>And, I know LOTS of smart immigrant kids who don't realize that their verbal scores will matter to MIT. I've argued with them about it dozens of times. They always say "They know I'm not a native speaker, so they won't hold it against me." I explain that "You've lived here since you were 10 years old. They are NOT going to cut you much slack because their are LOTS of immigrant kids applying to MIT who can match you in science AND have high verbal scores, so study and retake them." </p>

<p>Another good private counselor came up with a list of LACs which the parents who went to state schools had never heard of. One was Grinnell. Yep, they'd never heard of Grinnell. It wasn't on the radar screen of their kid's conselor at a NYC public magnet. They visited--she applied--she got in. Again, parents think the money was worth it because the counselor recommended lots of colleges that the high school counselor didn't mention and which were in fact better fits for their kid.</p>

<p>Using your example, what if you had a kid who really was interested in medievil history? And what if Dartmouth really did have a special interest in such a kid? Couldn't it help to have a counselor who found that out for you? I mean if you are really interested in Egyptology, you should apply to Brown. If you are really interested in optics, you should apply to U of Rochester. If you are really interested in social science statistics as a major, I'd suggest Northwestern--and I'll bet there are lots of people who are interested in those fields who don't know know that. </p>

<p>And, yes, Andison benefited from a private counselor too. That's a story with a happy ending.</p>

<p>So, we just have a different perspective. I am not in favor of hiring someone like Michele Hernandez or Kat Cohen. I don't think you aim the average student at MIT. But, yes, given the right role, I think a good ethical counselor can help.</p>

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<p>good post jonri.</p>

<p>S is just about to commit to Dartmouth...but I doubt medieval history will be his major..then again, who knows?....</p>

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<p>I am a believer in the private counselor although I haven't hired one. Like many CCers I am now a self taught college guru ;) but I am still amazed at all the nuansces. Who knew Wake Forest had rolling ED admissions? Your S/D could have their acceptence notice in Sept to a top notch school!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
...because the counselor took his hobby? obsession? pathology? with some computer game and turned it into a long standing passion for medieval history and only an "insider" would know that Dartmouth was trying to bolster its medieval history department that year.

[/quote]
You know mathson's little brother?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The big help though was the essays. She ripped his kid's first efforts into shreds. It was rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. Finally, she said "good--submit" He got in early to a college in the HYPS group.

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I agree with you that the essay got this kid admitted and the counselor's help was invaluable. The same kid, with the same abilities, transcripts, recommendations and scores, would probably not have been accepted if his essay had not been as strong. But if having a knowledgeable reader can make all the difference, well that just shows how crazy the whole admissions game has become. </p>

<p>Essays are the least reliable way to evaluate an applicant -- they are easily ghost-written and the response of the reader is so subjective -- yet they often turn out to be the most important part of an application.</p>

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<p>We hired a very, very expensive college counselor. She turned out to be evil and the worst thing that ever happened. I hired her because I thought it would be nicer to have an intermediary between me and my kid. Somebody else to make him do things, somebody else to critizise the essay. The essay was a total disaster and had to be redone with no time to spare. She counseled another of her clients to drop out of high school and get a GED. This is a true story. My kid refused to see her and there went 5000.00 dollars down the drain. I do feel now that I am an expert and could do college counseling myself. And I should have listened closely to our school that strongly dissuades parents from hiring these people.</p>

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<p>Jonri, I respect your point of view and your experiences are certainly more positive than the water cooler talk I hear at work. But just for fun- why are these services called Ivy Edge or Ivywise?</p>

<p>I used to hire boat loads of engineers. My favorite source school was U Missouri at Rolla. Great kids, great training, hard workers, no attitude. If I had a kid who was interested in a top notch engineering program and either couldn't afford or didn't want one of the more obvious choices, I would have happily done a trip to check out Rolla. Just a fantastic school.</p>

<p>So if, as you contend, these counselors really just want what's best for their clients, why don't they call themselves "Rolla-edge" or "Bard-wise". No, their marketing materials proclaim rather loudly how good they are getting your kid into you-know-where, how experienced their folks are with the Cambridge/New Haven/Hanover circuit, and how wonderful their track record is at all the places they think vulnerable and anxious parents want to know about.</p>

<p>I think it's great that for a mere 1K your friends son got his essay ripped to shreds. But surely you realize that most counselors are charging a heck of a lot more for substantially more "goods and services". The counselors who are busy telling a 15 year old that she can't go back to camp to work as a CIT this summer because "Nobody in Palo Alto is going to give a %^&* about you teaching 9 year olds how to tie knots" is what gets me going. Why would a parent pay good money to listen to this... and of course, what pernicious message does it send a kid about their own preferences and choices being somehow inadequate, not up to snuff, hopelessly gauche.</p>

<p>I'm sure there are good and ethical counselors who work hard to get their clients through a trying process. But you must admit that the marketing materials which trump Ivy whatever are NOT sending the message that if your kid would be a great fit at Hofstra we will work night and day to help your kid be the best Hofstra applicant he can be..... and why not? "cause there's no money in that. Most people... even the ones whose kids eventually end up happy at Hofstra.... concede that this they could have done without paid assistance.</p>

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<p>mathmom, I think you and I should compare lists for our S2s! Do you know which colleges offer a major in Risk? (the game, not the behavior, folks!) ;)</p>

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<p>I'm not familiar with Ivy Edge, but Ivywise is Kat Cohen's company. I've already said that I wouldn't hire her. I think she costs much too much and that, while she has some good ideas, you can get most of them by reading her book. Ironically, I think she does the most good for her pro bono clients--she does help some poor kids for free or nominal sums. These kids really do benefit and I doubt --no matter what they say--that admissions officers smell the marketing when the kid is from the projects and goes to an inner city parochial school.</p>

<p>But, thinking Kat Cohen--who is extremely successful--is a typical college adviser is like thinking all plastic surgeons only do surgery on insecure people who are already attractive. There are plastic surgeons who fix cleft palates, after all. I remember an article years ago in New York Magazine about a beautiful woman who went to top NYC plastic surgeons asking for some operation she obviously didn't need--a nose job or some such thing, when the one she had was not large. Most of the surgeons told her she was a good candidate and scheduled the surgery. One told her all the other work she needed. But one sat her down and said "You don't need this. If you think you do, I'd suggest that you see a psychologist or psychiatrist because I assure you you have a wonderful nose." </p>

<p>Maybe that's a silly analogy, but I hope it makes my point. What families need is someone who can give them an objective opinion, explain the process, and help with the soft factors--the essays and choice of recs, etc.</p>

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<p>Blossom, I have zero interest in hiring a counselor. Zero money for it either! As I said, the ones we got free as a benefit from H's company were not impressive. And I agree with you that they may offer advice which would be detrimental to the child. For one thing, they may not share your family's values. In our case, one of them advised me to tell D to cut back on the rigor of her course load and reduce her study time. The thinking was that if she trained more, and also studied less so she could get more sleep, she'd perform better athletically. That, in turn, would give her a greater admissions boost than a higher GPA or better SAT's would give her. First of all, even if this were true, I'd never counsel D to do it. Secondly, I checked into the idea and concluded that unless the improvement in performance was huge (and that's unlikely), there would be no appreciable change in which schools would be interested in D.</p>

<p>I asked the question about whether such a kid as mine would benefit from professional college counseling because I believe there is a big difference in rigor among schools. How often do kids and parents come on here and brag about how many in-depth EC's their children can do? Yet, folks like me and a few others discuss how our high schools make cross-participation very difficult if not impossible, and thus push kids into categories, like band kid, sports kid, academic competition kid, or club kid. Also, the number of hours of homework required varies tremendously among schools. A friend of mine just enrolled her D in a private school. She's taking all honors classes yet comes home with NO homework. When she is assigned some, it's so little she can always get it done in school. That would NEVER be the case at our high school. Furthermore, there's a big difference between the qualifications and brilliance of the top 20 students at some private school near us, and the top 20 at our high school.</p>

<p>The perception in our region is that our school is top notch. It's the kind of place where the Val S's year took multi-variable calculus at the high school as a frosh. Still, in the memory of the veteran GC's, no one from our high school has ever managed to be admitted to Harvard or Yale. So I wondered if, in the absence of those private school type GC's who are chummy with the H and Y adcoms, those schools and other colleges I may not be aware of, simply do not properly interpret the context within which students from our high school must work. Do they know that if a kid from our hs is telling them he's a three-sport athlete and is also involved in 5 clubs/school organizations, then he's either lying, or rarely attends team practices? All clubs meet after school at the same time as sports. Not true at the local privates, which have a half day every Wed. so kids can devote the afternoon to clubs. Thus their varsity athletes could be involved in several clubs with no conflict. Is this understood when applications are evaluated? Lastly, I'm pretty confident that the B+ D has in a class at our high school is worth way more than an A in the same AP at another school. I wondered if a private counselor would be able to advise a kid how to get these points across without sounding like they're making excuses or trying to justify lower grades or fewer EC's, which is probably how I sound.</p>

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<p>PS: I should probably say that even though I'm aware that regional adcoms are supposed to know their areas and understand the context of all the high schools in those areas, I'm not so sure they do know them all nor keep up with the times. For example, my friends who live near Princeton tell me that years ago, Princeton High School was considered the best school in the area. But demographics have changed, and now an affluent neighboring district, West Windsor-Plainsboro, is viewed as the top dog. Our high school is like the latter. The town used to be a sleepy rural community, not particularly affluent, but now it has a socio-economic composition just a tad beneath West Windsor's. Yet neighboring schools who had been higher ranked but now are no better than ours, still seem to have more success with the HYP schools (and who knows which others too). I'm wondering if there's a lag in appreciation?</p>

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<p>I think it is really unfair that some students use private consultants, this is a prime example of the disparities that are so rampant within our society. The entire process of getting into selective schools really is skewed for wealthy people, from ECs to counselor recs, to even college counseling it just seems to disadvantage those of us who come not from poor backgrounds but middle class backgrounds.
I mentioned this earlier, but if it were not for this site I 100% know that I would not have put together as good an application as I did (tons of people on here even read and gave advice on my essay, which helped by a gillizion points). I haven't recieved word about my applications yet, but if I am blessed to get in I wonder if it would be different if I had not had the advice and help from ppl here on CC. I am a black applicant and even with the URM boost the entire process seems so daunting, I can't even imagine what it must be like to be just a smart white suburban kid (or worse a smart Asian suburban kid). It seems like this entire process is stacked up against certain groups from the beginning, so the prospect of a private counselor is repugnant.</p>

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<p>Dbate, welcome to the real world. The advantages of wealthy kids begins in the womb with superior health care. They go to top pre schools, great elementary, middle and high schools. They have tutors, test prep and terrific summer activities. They travel the world. Their test scores directly correlate with their parent's incomes. A private counselor is just another perk.</p>

<p>Not that it equalizes things, but this is why top colleges now look at income and whether you're first generation. It's why kids from under performing schools get a boost.</p>

<p>As you say, the internet is also changing things. Information is power. And we have more mobility in this Country than anywhere else. In a single generation many go from low income to wealthy. So go to a good school and pay it forward. Lots of folks do it and there are a lot fewer George W's at Yale now.</p>

<p>Yet the reality of it all is that money talks in this Country and always will.</p>