<p>Hey USNA69,
I don't have a "dead end" civilian job.. and of all the "gray stack" types I've ever met, I've yet to meet a "seaman".. Maybe for Ensign Jones, a little less emphasis on marching and a little more emphasis on seamanship/navigation and marine engineering might be more helpful. As far as changes at USNA go, two words to the Mids "cowboy up"</p>
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<p>Maybe you are hanging out in the wrong crowd. I have met quite a few, good ones.</p>
<p>Why not both seamanship and military bearing? Never realized it had to be an either/or situation.</p>
<p>USNA69, with my almost 17 years of seatime, 6 issues of a Coast Guard unlimited Masters license and first class pilotage for 3 major west coast ports, I think what you and I consider to be a good "seaman" might just differ a wee bit..</p>
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Given the emphasis that mids sh/ only be doing those things that support the Navy's mission:</p>
<p>The march-on sh/ eliminated since there is no need for such close-formation marching on a ship.
Perhaps it should be replace with a fire fighting run on, w/ hoses and the mids dressed in firefighting gear!
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<p>You are too funny Bill0510</p>
<p>Shogun: maybe Mids can't march but at least they would not spit and throw things on the Cadets. (It did happen and I saw it first hand - many a Mid has also confirmed what I saw)</p>
<p>USNA69 Bill never related dead end jobs to the Military. His analogy had to do with we all at some time have been in jobs where we could not leave for whatever reason and that change is inevitable. You made a gigantic leap in thinking that he was in some way relating dead end civilian jobs to the military.</p>
<p>The problem here is that change has not been articulated so that any reason for the change can be understood. Maybe this is why English needs to be taught in a Technical/Military school.</p>
<p>deepdraft, Yep, especially since my consideration would involve being an expert at fighting the ship and also a much more complex definition of leadership. In my meager 12 years at sea, I saw a lot that were outstanding at all three. Apples and oranges. To compare the two would be foolhardy. Both do their jobs well.</p>
<p>First of all, the Supe doesn't have to give his reasons for change. However, I believe he has done so. He gave a press interview (cited by GreatAmerican on another thread) stating that he and the Dant believe the focus of USNA should be preparing mids to be JOs in time of war. In his opinion, the focus should be on academics and preparing for military service, rather than on ECAs. I would assume that the changes he is implementing are, in his view, intended to accomplish this goal.</p>
<p>My personal opinion is that a renewed focus on academics is a good thing. I think that mandatory meals during the week help build camaraderie. Lack of weekday liberty isn't a terrible thing -- we didn't have it until 2nd semester 1/C year and only then on Wednesdays. I'm not a fan of returning to the "good old days," or we'd all be stuck in 1845. However, in general, I can't say I disagree with what I've read in terms of the Supe's comments or proposals. </p>
<p>Bill, as for civilian jobs, the fact is that, as a general rule (with some exceptions), civilians work under an "employment at will" arrangement meaning they legally can quit any time they want to. As you know, military officers do not have that right, especially during time of war.</p>
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<p>Please, please let's drop this one. Navy won the ball game. They lost the marching contest even though they were unaware that there was one. Everything else is speculation.</p>
<p>I won't say that I am quoting from some slides because some may consider the following information to be classified and complain to administrators.
Following is a rough idea of how changes are taking effect w/ regard to ECAs.</p>
<p>There are now Four tiers of ECAs. [Extracurricular Activities]</p>
<p>Tier I ECA are activities of a professional nature that "develop the
Brigade of Midshipmen" These are ECAs that support the Brigade and
"advance midshipmen interest in individual warfare communities." Semper
Fi, NA Avidation Society, Surface Navy Assoc, Dolphin Club, YP Squadron</p>
<p>Tier II ECA are those that include Academic ECAs.<br>
Chemistry Club, Marine Technologly, Society of Women Engineers,
French Club, Am. Society of Navaly Engr. and other professional societies.</p>
<p>Tier III ECA are orgs whose existence is of special importance due to
their contribution to the successof the NA. Tier III are charged w/
carrying out official functions on behalf of the NA. NOTE: "Special
procedures permitting deviation from normal routines of the Brigade MAY be
authorized on a case by case basis." This tier includes musical
groups, spirit activities and ceremonial activities.</p>
<p>Tier IV ECA are recreational activities. Midshipman Action Group,
various clubs, etc.</p>
<p>There are new restrictions on the number of mids permitted in each activity and restrictions on the number of activities in which a mid may participate.</p>
<p>ECA movement orders may only commence during authorized liberty time depending upon class rank.</p>
<p>In short, I would not expect to see musical groups flying about the country and reprsenting the Academy. Musical groups no longer seem to
be the "face of the Navy."</p>
<p>
[quote]
However, I believe he has done so. He gave a press interview (cited by GreatAmerican on another thread) stating that he and the Dant believe the focus of USNA should be preparing mids to be JOs in time of war. In his opinion, the focus should be on academics and preparing for military service, rather than on ECAs. I would assume that the changes he is implementing are, in his view, intended to accomplish this goal.
[/quote]
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<p>So riding around in a YP with the YP Squadron (fancy name for a club) driving the boat like you are just cruising around is okay - but being a leader for Habitat for Humanity or singing in a Midshipman produced musical, or playing the violin in the orchestra is not developing leaders or academic in nature - Sorry I beg to differ all of the activities have a place on the yard. Mine actually made the final decision to attend USNA because there was an orchestra and continuing with music was very important to him - now he finds himself in a position where he was lead down a golden path. Tell me why do we have a Naval Academy Band? Shouldn't those enlisted and their officer be put to better use, after all it is a time of war? Many a study has also shown that students who participate in extra curricular activities generally do better in academics than those who only study. Maybe before undoing everything the previous Supe implemented he should have studied the effects of taking those EC's and training billets away.</p>
<p>Read Bills post again - many civilians are stuck in a job and can not quite because of one reason or another - lets say maybe because of insurance, health issues, age. </p>
<p>Many of these Mids had many other choices for higher education including ROTC, many chose USNA based on what it had to offer in addition to military training. For those of us parents whose kids had other very attractive offers including ROTC or even full academic offers, there needs to be a better explanation than "we are at war." Even the section on the "face of the Navy" is not valid as we are not going to allow the Mids to be seen other than on the yard. Last year the orchestra played for the Horatio Alger Awards in DC - many many young people from disadvantaged backgrounds who attended saw a group of young adults who will be serving their nation - really an inspiration to these kids - Evan Roger Staubach commented about the Midshipmen Orchestra. So you tell me now that was not a good thing? What about the Gospel Choir - they travel to Atlanta every year to sing in MLK Jr.s church for his birthday - a very poor section of Atlanta - maybe one of those young kids sitting in that audience who otherwise may not known about attending USNA decides that is a path they would like to pursue - they now will not have that opportunity to talk to current Mids - many would have no way to visit the yard or even bear the cost of NASS - (so much for the lip service of increasing minority enrollment.) So is the Brigade of Midshipman really the face of the Navy when they cannot be seen off the Yard? </p>
<p>Why have sports? How is that helping to train leaders and focus on academics? If you don't see the leadership potential or value in EC's how can you justify keeping athletics? Leadership training comes in all forms - both athletics and non athletic endeavors. Why ask on the application about EC's and leadership positions in those clubs if you believe that the really do not matter? Why have the brigade attend home football games - shouldn't they be studying or off doing military training. Watching a bunch of guys on a field running, kicking and hitting one another does not meet his goal to train military leaders. If he is going to take away any EC that does not meet Military goals then take away the sports too!</p>
<p>No where in what has been sent to the parents through either the list serv or the Alumni Association has the Supe given any sort of rational for his actions. The letter was poorly written and nothing more than a PR statement. His interview with the Baltimore Sun Times really did not tell me why certain things are deemed unnecessary. Remember too most of the parents do not read the Baltimore Sun Times so their only source of info was the little Press release.</p>
<p>No one here is questioning liberty during the week - I really think that is not an issue - even my mid has not really complained other than from the point that if you have earned a weekend it now is really only an overnight. Mando meals he has questioned - when it takes away from study time - In my mids case it will. He liked eating early and getting to the library before the rush. So his view is that it is punishing the responsible student. </p>
<p>What is being questioned is this lack of understanding for what entails a good education. I personally do not want military leaders who can not read, write, carry on a conversation and only activity they know is military in nature. That to me describes a poor leader. I want leaders in the Military who understand culture, are well read in all types of literature, understand the value of music. Maybe if we had leaders today (not just military) that understood Arab Culture we would not be in the royal mess we are in. Give me a well rounded engineer any day over one who has no "life" And yes I am an engineer - oh by the way USNA69 - female too since your earlier post thought I was a dad. I have worked with too many that are technically competent but lack everything else.</p>
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<p>Oops, sorry. I guess it is those stupid word association tests. Everytime I hear the word "Texan", I visualize cowboy boots, jeans, and a big hat. Probably Levi Garrett and a three day stubble also. Seriously, really sorry.</p>
<p>There are many, many civilians who are stuck in dead-end jobs or, for other reasons, cannot leave their jobs.</p>
<p>Is this what they used to teach at the Academy: Twist every word spoken to you in a way that you can justify anything you want to say?</p>
<p>The reason this seems to have gone over your head as it "relates to military careers" is because I wasn't relating the two.
It is a simple sentence that stands on its own. There are many, many civilians who are stuck in dead-end job [who] . . .cannot leave their jobs.
While there may not be any legal basis to prohibit them from leaving [USNA1985 is correct in this regard] that does not mean that after 16 years of employment, being within 5 years of retirement, a person can't be "stuck" in their job. So, whle a person may have the "legal" right to leave employment, most people don't have the ability to do so. Thus, when some pointy-headed 42yr old vice-president comes in and looks to make his/her "mark" on the organization, the ol' guy just has to suck it up and move ahead. ESPECIALLY IF HEALTH INSURANCE IS INVOLVED. That IS, indeed, applicable to most situations in life.</p>
<p>Fortunately, despite 69's assertion to the contrary, I don't too much about dead-end jobs because I haven't had a "job" in about 15 years. And I haven't had to work for the government in about 20 years. [Would a GS-15 be considered a "dead-end" job?]</p>
<p>But, as usual, 69 makes personal assumptions about others, spits them off, and then spins off into his own orbit to say whatever it is he wants to say in the hopes that he can influence sombody--anybody!--to believing the way he does. [Tell us some more about those Pagans Unca Frank. Please!]</p>
<p>My commente was made--in slight jest--in response to Shogun, who has a long history of "stirring the pot" to his amusement. Let's just say that Shogun and I have a mutual respect for each other's posts in a way that 69 does not [or will not] appreciate.</p>
<p>One last thing abou the "non-military types wouldn't understand" refrain.
This is an oft-heard response from just about every profession.</p>
<p>Late doctors. You wouldn't understand how a doctor's [hospital] office works. </p>
<p>Brutal cops. Youd wouln't understand how stressful a cop's life is.</p>
<p>Rude operators. wow! You just don't understand how stressful it is to answer that phone all day.</p>
<p>Slow postal clerks. There are so many people, we are so understaffed . . . you would'nt understand.</p>
<p>Fireman who want to renegotiate their contracts. You don't understand the brotherhood, my brother.</p>
<p>Teachers who need MORE time off. You don't understand how hard it is teach w/out the support of parents.</p>
<p>EVERYBODY thinks their job is stressful, long, hard, and/or dangerous.</p>
<p>This could start whole 'nother thread. Shogun? Contribution.</p>
<p>New liberty regulations..</p>
<p>Mon - Thu. No off yard liberty for any classes.
Fri -- No off-yard liberty for 3/c 4/c. 2/c begins at 1900. 1/c after Evening Meal Formation.</p>
<p>Sat. Various liberties. 3/c 4/c after noon meal formation. 2/c after 1100. 1/c after morning quarters formation. all to 2400.</p>
<p>Sund. 4/c no libert. 3/c after 1200. 2/c 1/c after 0800. All to 1800.</p>
<p>Bill,</p>
<p>"stir the pot?" Me???????</p>
<p>I enjoy coming around to the Navy board once in a while just to see "whats up". D turned down a Naval Academy Appt to go to WP a couple of years ago so I'm always thinking in the back of my mind, "what if?" I see the service academies as having one primary purpose---to supply the nation with officers to LEAD men and women in the event of WAR. To me it doesn't matter if its on a ship, in a tank, in a plane, or behind a desk. EC's are fine, but if the powers that be determine that they need to be de-emphasized or re-prioritized in order to better prepare OUR sons and daughters to lead other sons and daughters into danger than I'm all for it. These are MILITARY service academies and as parents we can't expect them to be anything other than that. Perhaps the fact that many people have not understood that fact has led to so many young men and women to opt out of the military after their 5 years, and have come to look at the service academies as a stepping stone into private industry. Perhaps a 5 year committment isn't enough to get their attention?
GO NAVY!
GO ARMY!</p>
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Perhaps a 5 year committment isn't enough to get their attention?
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<p>Maybe we just need to do away with the SA and ROTC and only have OCS. Actually might be a better use of federal dollars....food for thought.</p>
<p>Frankly, I want my federal dollars training these young men and women to be the best in the world in the area of leadership and the profession of arms. I don't see any venue today that can do that outside of the service academies. The service academies aren't "finishing schools" where we just churn out "officers and gentlemen". They need to be as proficient as possible at training army, naval, and Marine officers for a lifetime of service to the nation in the art of war. I would hate to have the single experience that they or their troops (or sailors) needed to survive to be lost because they were playing cards with the enlisted for a week instead of training.</p>
<p>"Frankly, I want my federal dollars training these young men and women to be the best in the world in the area of leadership and the profession of arms."</p>
<p>BINGO!!!!!</p>
<p>"So riding around in a YP with the YP Squadron (fancy name for a club) driving the boat like you are just cruising around is okay - but being a leader for Habitat for Humanity or singing in a Midshipman produced musical, or playing the violin in the orchestra is not developing leaders or academic in nature - Sorry I beg to differ all of the activities have a place on the yard."</p>
<p>It is after all the "Naval Academy", right..? Maybe there should be more "boat driving" and a little less "Ultimate Frisbie" club and acting in the "Pirates of Penzance". Maybe a little more "Sparta" and a little less "Athens". Especially when Sparta is at war.. Those "fields of friendly strife" should start looking a little like those fields these young men and women will find themselves on in a few years..</p>
<p>Except that, at least for NA, the Academy mission does not limit itself to "training . . . naval and Marine officers for a lifetime of service to the nation in the art of war."</p>
<p>Part of the NA missio is to "provide graduates who are dedicated to a career of naval service AND have potential for future development in mind and character to assume the highest responsibilities of command, CITIZENSHIP AND GOVERNMENT."</p>
<p>So, not only is the mission to provide naval officers but to also to also provide graduates who can assume responsiblities of citizenship and government outside the military.</p>
<p>To that end, it is certainly arguable that naval officers should be well rounded in aspects other than the command of a ship or its sailors. Thus, the emphasis on other ECAs in recent years.</p>
<p>Now, the question remains: Does all this mean that [because of ECAs and other distractions] graduates of recent years have been, somehow, less qualified than graduates of past years?</p>
<p>That may be true Bill, but as MacArthur said many years ago in his speech at West Point..</p>
<p>"....And through all this welter of change and development, your mission remains fixed, determined, inviolable: it is to win our wars.
Everything else in your professional career is but corollary to this vital dedication. All other public purposes, all other public projects, all other public needs, great or small, WILL FIND OTHERS for their accomplishment. But you are the ones who are trained to fight. Yours is the profession of arms, the will to win, the sure knowledge that in war there is no substitute for victory; that if you lose, the nation will be destroyed"</p>
<p>I think we have some outstanding candidates for a few local school boards here! Ready for service and telling their school leaders PRECISELY how to do it. What could the Navy possibly know about running a SA. :confused:</p>