<p>oh, and "mea maxima culpa" for the 2 MacArthur quotes on the Naval Academy board.. :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think we have some outstanding candidates for a few local school boards here! Ready for service and telling their school leaders PRECISELY how to do it. What could the Navy possibly know about running a SA.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Seeing as the Service Academies are run using tax payer dollars, It seems to me perfectly legitimate that private citizens are justified in questioning the use of their tax payer dollars. Fuerthermore, while the Navy may be equipped to run a service academy, its important not to forget that one of the pillars of our military is civilian oversight.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Seeing as the Service Academies are run using tax payer dollars, It seems to me perfectly legitimate that private citizens are justified in questioning the use of their tax payer dollars. Fuerthermore, while the Navy may be equipped to run a service academy, its important not to forget that one of the pillars of our military is civilian oversight.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Very well stated!!!</p>
<p>OK, I'm a parent of a plebe wannabee, not an officer. I do have at least a dozen years' experience as a civilian engineer for the Navy, and lots of time spent sailing and racing small boats. FWIW, here are my comments.</p>
<p>Focusing on mission is always important, particularly in a time of war. However, I don't see sail training (IC or offshore) under any tier of ECA, and there have been hints in this forum that sail training may be diminished. YP sailing is obviously important, but I would argue that small boat sailing also directly supports the mission of developing competent naval officers. Small boat sailing contributes to knowledge of nautical "jargon," rules of the road, and understanding the effects of wind, sea state, and tide upon a vessel's maneuverability. Sailing 26s and particularly 44s requires as much teamwork as any other sports team, yet participation in offshore sailing encourages development of navigation skills, watch standing, and experience as a true CO/XO. In order to fight a ship, the ship must be sailed well, and my guess is that mids who have done well in IC/offshore racing will be better large ship handlers than if they had not had racing experience.</p>
<p>2012mom? all very true.. any experience in small craft (be it sail or motor) can only help you after you step up to larger ships... or larger "platforms" as my Naval brethren sometimes like to call them.. :)</p>
<p>Exactly what my mid said - he learned more on the sailing cuise - 44's from Norfolk to Annapolis - than he ever imagined. It was very hard work. It was all about the team. He was the navigator. It was long hours with personal rewards at the end. It was leadership training at its best. I have not hear really much about any leadership or valuable knowledge gained on any of the fleet cruises. Son's roomie was on a destroyer in high seas spent most of the time barfing over the side. The best he took away is study harder to make it to flight school.</p>
<p>My son did the Sailing Squadron last year (change to sailing from the YP Squadron after getting tossed on his head aboard a wild YP friday night outing) One Sailing "Outing" was to sail to St Michaels MD for their Crab festival and give tours of the boat. They sailed in 40 degree temps with cold water all night long to get there first thing in the morning, first time ever sailing at night and in cold water and temps. It was a great learning experience.</p>
<p>One cannot handle a ship if one has no idea of basic sailing. IMO</p>
<p>"One cannot handle a ship if one has no idea of basic sailing." </p>
<p>Well, NativeTexan, That is not entirely true.. but small boat experience doesn't hurt.. IMHO.
Some of the best ship pilots I've seen are former tugboat captains..</p>
<p>Yes, our governing principles allow us to discuss, suggest, bellyache all we want to our elected officials. And most of all to vote. And yes USNA has an oversight board, many of whom are civilians. I do not believe they have governing responsibilities though, nor is the Supe directly responsible to that Board. Please stand me corrected, if that may be in order, and it may.</p>
<p>We can talk all we want at them and they are under zero obligation to listen, although I'm sure most will, politely, or accept any of our insightful offerings as to how they direct spending of our tax dollars. </p>
<p>In the end our meanderings and musings about what we think ought to be part of the curricula of our SAs are just that, although many of us are deluded to think we should have some say in how it's all done at the Yard or the Points.</p>
<p>Here's what the Board of Visitors duties include:</p>
<p>The duty of the academy's Board of Visitors is to inquire into the state of morale and discipline, the curriculum, instruction, physical equipment, fiscal affairs, academic methods, and other matters relating to the academy which the board decides to consider. The board consists of six members appointed by the President, three appointed by the Vice President, four appointed by the Speaker of the House of Representatives, one designated by the Senate Armed Services Committee and one designated by the House Committee on National Security. The President of the United States receives an annual written report of the Board's findings and recommendations.</p>
<p>I don't see anythng there indicating responsibily for listening to the citizenry about operations of the USNA. And even so ... there's is to inquire, report, recommend to the President. Not govern. Not to seek citizen input beyond themselves. So it would seem that its no more our purview or right to run or even recommend how the SAs operate than it is for us to say how the military should operate. Our responsiblity is to vote.</p>
<p>
[quote]
accept any of our insightful offerings as to how they direct spending of our tax dollars.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What was explained to us when hit up for a donation to the foundation - tax dollars do not pay for EC's that is why they ask for money from the parents. If enough donors withhold money pledged to the foundation and after talking to some alumni, IMO they will listen. </p>
<p>EC's are a part of these young peoples education. The Academy if failing this group of future leaders in denying them these opportunities.</p>
<p>The Alumni board in our area are certainly listening to the area USNA parents. They have been calling to asking many questions. Many that I have talked to today also have these same concerns - there are some who don't but for the most part their concerns mirror those of the parents. </p>
<p>Most of us feel the liberty thing is a non issue - the mids will get over it. It is the opportunities to develop leadership that are being eliminated that has the alumni attention. One gentleman I spoke to - whose company is very involved with community outreach was appalled that the Midshipman Action Group was now listed as a recreational activity. Really, what message is that sending to the mids... community involvement doesn't matter?</p>
<p>NativeTexan, does the Naval Academy need ECA's to develop leadership?? I thought that's why they organized the student body as a "brigade". I would think that there ought to be more than enough opportunities within that structure to develop leadership, right? Maybe not..
Just wondering...</p>
<p>You can make a fair arguement to get rid of sailing the 44's. It does enhance leadership, but it really doesn't emulate what the fleet is truely like.</p>
<p>My only gripe as a current mid is if they scraped YP summer training. I learned a ton about navigation and leadership.</p>
<p>I have to go with the leadership here and agree that even though not many mids enjoyed the summer fleet cruises, mine was extremely beneficial in molding my view on leading enlisted sailors. By interacting with them, you learn what makes them tick, and what they think comprises good leaders.</p>
<p>At a brief I had, a captain brought up that the perception of Naval Academy grads is that we are arrogant and disrespectful. Most mids were appalled at this statement, but as soon as I stepped on a real destroyer, this became the immediate perception. Perhaps more interaction with sailors will help diminish this view some.</p>
<p>No sailor cares where Ensign Joe went to school. They did make remarks about new Ensigns onboard their ship who came off as disrespectful.</p>
<p>I have to agree with the Dant that sailors expect three things from JO's:</p>
<ol>
<li>Know your job</li>
<li>Be a leader of character</li>
<li>Be open to new ideas</li>
</ol>
<p>I honestly wouldn't mind if I could spend my next two summers onboard ships. Learning how to lead sailors and marines during wartime is the administration's mission. Even if we don't agree with it, we always have to remember to take our leader's goals and objectives in stride.</p>
<p>My company officer brought up a great point about taking orders. If you are a follower, then your job is to carry out the mission of those appointed over you. When passing down orders to subordinates, you can never implement your own spin to a superior's goals or hint that you aren't sided with them. Your job as a follower is to make sure your boss is successful, even in the military.</p>
<p>Let's face it, the Supt. has a boss too. Maybe the CNO or the President have given orders to make USNA more militaristic. In any case, life goes on here, and from 2010's perspective, anything was better than last year as a plebe.</p>
<p>Hi folks. If anyone actually wants to comment to the Board of Visitors about the changes at USNA, here's information about their next meeting:</p>
<p>SUBJECT CATEGORY: Meeting of the U.S. Naval Academy Board of Visitors </p>
<p>DATES: The open session of the meeting will be held on Monday, September 24, 2007, from 8 a.m. to 11:10 a.m. The closed Executive Session will be held from 11:10 a.m. to 12 p.m. </p>
<p>DOCUMENT SUMMARY: The U.S. Naval Academy Board of Visitors will meet to make such inquiry, as the Board shall deem necessary into the state of morale and discipline, the curriculum, instruction, physical equipment, fiscal affairs, and academic methods of the Naval Academy. The meeting will include discussions of personnel issues at the Naval Academy, the disclosure of which would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy. The executive session of this meeting will be closed to the public. </p>
<p>SUMMARY: Naval Academy Board of Visitors, </p>
<p>SUPPLEMENTAL INFORMATION</p>
<p>This notice of meeting is provided per the Federal Advisory Committee Act (5 U.S.C. App. 2). The executive session of the meeting will consist of discussions of personnel issues at the Naval Academy and internal Board of Visitors matters. The proposed closed session from 11:10 a.m.12 p.m. will include a discussion of new and pending courtsmartial and state criminal proceedings involving the Midshipmen attending the Naval Academy to include an update on the pending/ongoing sexual assault cases, rape cases, etc. The proposed closed session from 11:10 a.m. to 12 p.m. will include a discussion of new and pending administrative/minor disciplinary infractions and non judicial punishments involving the Midshipmen attending the Naval Academy to include but not limited to individual honor/conduct violations within the Brigade. Discussion of such information cannot be adequately segregated from other topics, which precludes opening the executive session of this meeting to the public. Accordingly, the Secretary of the Navy has determined in writing that the meeting shall be partially closed to the public because it will be concerned with matters listed in section 552b(c) (5), (6), and (7) of title 5, United States Code.</p>
<p>Dated: August 8, 2007.
T. M. Cruz,
Lieutenant, Judge Advocate General's Corps, U.S. Navy, Federal Register Liaison Officer.
[FR Doc. E715981 Filed 81407; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 3810FFP </p>
<p>FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT Lieutenant Andrew B. Koy, USN, Executive Secretary to the Board of Visitors, Office of the Superintendent, U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, MD 214025000, telephone: 4102931503.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No sailor cares where Ensign Joe went to school. They did make remarks about new Ensigns onboard their ship who came off as disrespectful.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Working with many prior enlisted that is certainly not what they said. It was a question that my son asked the priors before he accepted the appointment. The common thought within this group was they had the most respect for the USNA grads followed by OCS. This group had much distain for the ROTC grads. </p>
<p>Goes to show that you can not make these generalizations. Depends on the assignment, the group of sailors, the Ensigns they meet, the priors own personality.... For each group who dislike the USNA grads you can find the next that has the highest respect.</p>
<p>
[quote]
from 2010's perspective, anything was better than last year as a plebe.
[/quote]
Maybe you should say from this 2010... Your sentiment is not felt by all of the class of 2010.</p>
<p>Thanks Annapolitan, I had been trying to find this information.</p>
<p>deepdraft1</p>
<p>EC's bring different leadership opportunities, and different missions which can only help to enhance their education. If all these young people are only exposed to is Military issues they will be very shallow individuals. I want my military leaders to be well versed in lifes opportunities - that is what the EC's bring to the table. </p>
<p>For example - When most military bases have very active community volunteer groups and now they are met with a new officer that came from USNA where he/she viewed volunteering as nothing more than recreation, will that attitude prevail when they are out in the fleet? A group on enlisted have their own jazz band - play for community events (my cousin played in one his entire time in the Navy - 60's through the 80's) Music and this group of life friends is most of his memories, A new Officer shows up and finds this not good use of military resources an attitude developed at USAN - will this officer be an effective leader when he/she cannot understand the importance of music in these sailors life?</p>
<p>EC's make these young people well rounded, that can only help to make them better leaders.</p>
<p>Just curious if that "Board of Visitors" is a regular/annual event? Sounds like the first part of the meeting is open to the public.</p>
<p>
[quote]
NativeTexan, does the Naval Academy need ECA's to develop leadership?? I thought that's why they organized the student body as a "brigade". I would think that there ought to be more than enough opportunities within that structure to develop leadership, right? Maybe not..
Just wondering...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The Naval Academy does not NEED ECAs to develop leadership, however, by cutting these programs they are taking away many of the tools that they posses. Yes, within the brigade/4 class system there are many opportunities to develop leadership. However, participation in ECAs only enhances what the brigade already offers. In fact, one of my most rewarding experiences was being responsible for the planning of one of the largest undergraduate academic conferences in the country. It took up a great deal of my time and did take away from academics. But what I realized throughout the process was that what I was doing for this conference was much more important than anything I was learning in Constitutional Law or Weapons. This particular job was a crash course in leadership and management, and despite that at times I seemed a bit overwhelmed by all the work, I would gladly do it again. This ECA was not an exception either. Most, if not all of the ECAs are entirely midshipman run. Each ECA then offers challenges for the midshipman leadership of the said group and contributes to their development as an officer in the naval service.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I have to go with the leadership here and agree that even though not many mids enjoyed the summer fleet cruises, mine was extremely beneficial in molding my view on leading enlisted sailors. By interacting with them, you learn what makes them tick, and what they think comprises good leaders.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I guess your experience was better than the two I had. The only real benefit I took from summer fleet cruises came when service selection came around. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I honestly wouldn't mind if I could spend my next two summers onboard ships. Learning how to lead sailors and marines during wartime is the administration's mission. Even if we don't agree with it, we always have to remember to take our leader's goals and objectives in stride.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As it should be. That being said though, I sincerely question whether or not time stashed away on a ship is that beneficial in the development of officers. Once again, maybe I was jaded by my experience, but it seemed to me that commanding a YP or a platoon of newly minted midshipman had a much more positive effect.</p>
<p>There seems to be a major problem with the fleet cruises as a whole. Most Mids do not have great experiences. The answer seems to be in working with Fleet commanders to insure that Mids on summer duty get a worthwhile experience instead of having them standing around and becoming bored, etc. I have heard from several Mids that they had great experiences on their cruises and were given duties onboard ship and were exposed to a variety of duty sections. They seem to be in the minority however. Contrast that with those Mids attending Leatherneck or one of the other Marine summer billets. There was an article about a couple of Mids on their Firstie cruise that opted to be assigned to a carrier on the British fleet. They had wonderful experiences and were given loads of responsibilities, etc. Very different experience. Bottom line is if you are going to increase the time spent in the Fleet then at least make it worthwhile. At the present time I am not convinced that many get experiences that build on their leadership abilities or prepare them for assignments in the Fleet.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Perhaps by attempting to accomplish too many diverse summer training evolutions, it has diluted the effectiveness of all of them. I can see where youngsters reporting aboard a ship for only a couple of weeks might be shuffled to the side. In ancient history, it was called Youngster Cruise. I chuckled when I recently saw it referred to as a "tour" or something similiar, can't remember which. We reported aboard for six to eight weeks. Ships were selected which would be underway. We were given 'PQS' books and had to get them signed off by ships personnel. As youngsters, we divided our time between Deck, Operations, and Engineering. We were on the watch bill and expected to qualify on our watch stations. Our PQS books were graded, watch station qualifications were acknowledged, and we were assigned a final grade which became a part of our GPA and/or Professional Grade. Can't remember which. </p>
<p>If dillution has prevented this from happening, this obviously most important part of summer training, the superficial may require elimination.</p>
<p>Whistle Pig:
Your right that the superintendent does not have to listen to the posters of these message boards. In the end all we are doing is bellyaching. That being said, it doesn't mean that many of these people are incapable of making sound arguments concerning the proposed changes going on at the Academy.</p>