Diversity: Explicit Example

Student Lounge College Life
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Yea, you are done. And by the way that was a great hypothetical example that everyone ought to seriously consider.

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<p>Everyone but you. I'd hate to make you uncomfortable with whatever you might be believing. </p>

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Why does it surprise you that at schools where there are a bunch of fabrizio's, Easy's, and dontno's prancing around and making racist/sexist comments who seem to think that they have a right to supersede the admissions officers' decisions and decide who is truly worthy/entitled to being admitted that African Americans and other minorities do poorly?

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<p>You continue to proffer transparent pieces of rhetoric even after I called you on it several times. </p>

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Ever since whites considered Asians to be the "model minority" Asians have continued to succeed.

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<p>You've switched around cause and effect. Or do you really believe that Asians are only successful because white people think they're smart?</p>

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<p>Newjack88,</p>

<p>How is the graduation rate not representative of the difficulty of graduating from the school? I live in a city that has a four-year university. Its four-year graduation rate is a little higher than 25%. It’s not hard that of a school – I’ve taken classes there – but clearly, it is difficult to graduate from the school. If it were not difficult, then the graduation rate would not be so low.</p>

<p>Michigan is certainly not a part of the Ivy Leagues. However, I challenge you to say, “Michigan is not an elite school” at our CC Michigan subforum. See what kind of responses you get.</p>

<p>Ironically, your source does not corroborate your claim that Michigan and Berkeley are outliers. According to your source, "[The black graduation rate] is 20 percentage points below the 63 percentage rate for white students. On this front, the only positive news is that over the past three years the black student graduation rate has improved by four percentage points." Virginia is the outlier for it is the only public university on that entire list.</p>

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Basically, it is people like you who go on and on about how affirmative action is "immoral" that cause African Americans and other minorities to do poorly. I bet Asians would do poorly if they were discriminated against/viewed in the same ways African Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans are/were. Ever since whites considered Asians to be the "model minority" Asians have continued to succeed. It is people like you who encourage minorities to self segregate and to question whether or not they are capable/deserving of attending a good school. People like you just seem reluctant to be welcoming of minorities. Why does it surprise you that at schools where there are a bunch of fabrizio's, Easy's, and dontno's prancing around and making racist/sexist comments who seem to think that they have a right to supersede the admissions officers' decisions and decide who is truly worthy/entitled to being admitted that African Americans and other minorities do poorly?

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<p>Absolute duplicity. You are the one saying that blacks need to be treated preferentially. I’m the one saying blacks don’t need racial preferences, that they’re just as good. Think about that for a moment and then tell me with a straight face that you are more encouraging than I am.</p>

<p>I’m not going to respond to the remainder of your post because it is nothing but straw men.</p>

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You've switched around cause and effect. Or do you really believe that Asians are only successful because white people think they're smart?

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<p>Are you Asian? If so, I suggest you read more on Asian American history--actually even if you're not Asian too.</p>

<p>People of color who immigrated legally after the civil rights movement occurred have had a psychological advantage. Look at the success of Asians and the African immigrants of the 1990s.</p>

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<p>Newjack88,</p>

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Haha. You need everything spelled out for you don't you? I wouldn't expect that from a UGA student... actually yes I would. (Just for your criticizing that Stanford student.)

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<p>Uh, I go to Georgia Tech…</p>

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Anyway, you said, "I don’t deny that racism is one component, but I think it is incredibly na</p>

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People of color who immigrated legally after the civil rights movement occurred have had a psychological advantage. Look at the success of Asians and the African immigrants of the 1990s.

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<p>Is it a psychological advantage or is it a reflection on the composition of those immigrants? If these Africans and Asians were the most (or more) competent members of their home countries, then they would be successful in America too.</p>

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Ever since whites considered Asians to be the "model minority" Asians have continued to succeed.

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You've switched around cause and effect. Or do you really believe that Asians are only successful because white people think they're smart?

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Are you Asian? If so, I suggest you read more on Asian American history--actually even if you're not Asian too.

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<p>First, you haven’t addressed Easy’s claim, and you haven’t answered Easy’s question.</p>

<p>Second, you have switched the cause and effect. You say the cause is “whites consider Asians to be the ‘model minority’” and the effect is “Asians have continued to succeed.” That doesn’t make sense. Why did whites consider Asians to be the model minority in the first place? That is the effect of a cause, and what is the cause? Asians succeeded.</p>

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<p>Fabrizio.</p>

<p>You do know, that at most of the top privates where AA is practiced, the graduation rate for Blacks and Whites are very similar? Go look at Hawkettes previous post. Very funny how you find one example that seems to support your conclusion while leaving out others that don't.</p>

<p>Secondly, you admitted yourself that racism could play a part in the educational development of a minority. I said preference can be allowed for such things as long as it's given in a certain context. Not just given to Any URM, only given to those who it is seen have overcome such things. That's a significant difference.</p>

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Again, sloppy reading. I did not take part in Dr. Ogbu’s research, and I’m not trying to prove anything. Those were simply Dr. Ogbu’s findings. Since I don’t believe there is a biological basis for race, I certainly don’t believe that being black automatically means less involvement in education. That’s bad faith discussion on your part.

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<p>I'm sorry. You quoting something incites assumptions of understanding and agreement. Why the hell would you quote someone if you don't believe his cultural assertions. You keep extending the argument -- allowing it to encompass every part of a distinct "race". I said, in CERTAIN CONTEXTS, race can be used as a factor. Not for every URM as you'd like to believe. I never said being black automatically means less involvement in education. That's sloppy reading on your part. I've always said IN CERTAIN CONTEXTS. Jesus. </p>

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Absolute duplicity. You are the one saying that blacks need to be treated preferentially. I’m the one saying blacks don’t need racial preferences, that they’re just as good

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<p>No. With those statements in conjunction with your quotes, you're saying their are significantly fewer qualified blacks than the other respective races. </p>

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Then you’ve contradicted yourself. Was it not you who wrote, “You can't say that subjectivity is valid in some cases, but wrong in others. You can't take into account different factors for one applicant -- and refuse to do the same for another”?

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<p>Why do we use socio-economic status? If those findings are the same for race -- than in certain instances I would agree with giving the same preference for either.</p>

<p>I'm comparing all subjective factors. I don't think it's fair to use one socio-ec status and not use race if they're both found to influence academic performance.</p>

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How is the graduation rate not representative of the difficulty of graduating from the school? I live in a city that has a four-year university. Its four-year graduation rate is a little higher than 25%. It’s not hard that of a school – I’ve taken classes there – but clearly, it is difficult to graduate from the school. If it were not difficult, then the graduation rate would not be so low.

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<p>Fail.</p>

<p>So then it is easier for a person to graduate from Harvard than from that four-year school? </p>

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Michigan is certainly not a part of the Ivy Leagues. However, I challenge you to say, “Michigan is not an elite school” at our CC Michigan subforum. See what kind of responses you get.

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<p>Fail.</p>

<p>Although Michigan is not an "elite" school like Harvard/Stanford/etc., it is still a high ranking school.</p>

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Ironically, your source does not corroborate your claim that Michigan and Berkeley are outliers.

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<p>So?</p>

<p>Michigan and Berkeley are outliers in that they are high ranking schools with low African American graduation rates. Typically, the higher the school is ranked, the higher the African American graduation rate is. Because this is not the case with Michigan and Berkeley, I consider them outliers. According to Merriam Webster, an "outlier" is a noun and is something that is "a statistical observation that is markedly different in value from the others of the sample." I hope that makes things clearer for you.</p>

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Absolute duplicity. You are the one saying that blacks need to be treated preferentially. I’m the one saying blacks don’t need racial preferences, that they’re just as good. Think about that for a moment and then tell me with a straight face that you are more encouraging than I am.

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Haha. If you think that "blacks don't need racial preferences [because] they are just as good," why haven't you been condemning Easy's and dontno's posts? To be honest, since you haven't, I have been assuming that you agree with what they have been posting like that the only benefit of giving women preferential treatment in sciences it to get "more booty" for the guys in the field.</p>

<p>Well, if this is your reasoning for getting rid of affirmative action (not sure if I believe it is though), I partially agree. I think that the effect of being black/Native American/Hispanic/etc. can no longer be accurately assumed. I think that schools like Harvard that consider race but don't assume a uniform effect and expect more from wealthier URMs are practicing affirmative action properly.</p>

<p>However, I think that legally banning affirmative action is risky because it limits the effectiveness of holistic admissions. I believe and will always believe that race and gender provide key insights into a person's life. For example, Jeremy Lin--one of Harvard's best basketball players--really would not be all that interesting if he were white or black simply because there are a lot of white and black college basketball players. Also, one can assume that his being Asian has at one time or another affected his confidence in his ability as a basketball player simply because, prior to Yao Ming/etc., there were few big time Asian NBA players and Asians are not considered to be athletic. That probably meant that there were times when he was not picked first, etc. because he was Asian despite the fact that he is an excellent basketball player. These are all things that can only be fully appreciated if you KNOW and can consider that Jeremy is Asian.</p>

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Second, you have switched the cause and effect. You say the cause is “whites consider Asians to be the ‘model minority’” and the effect is “Asians have continued to succeed.” That doesn’t make sense. Why did whites consider Asians to be the model minority in the first place? That is the effect of a cause, and what is the cause? Asians succeeded.

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<p>No. He said, they've continued to succeed. Which means their earlier success was the cause of that consideration. </p>

<p>I'll explain it to you. Asians succeeded. Whites then considered them to be the model minority. They continued to succeed. Just an anecdote. Nothing meant of it. Supposed to create an analogy to be used with other minorities.</p>

<p>Just use that analogy with other URMinorities.</p>

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Is it a psychological advantage or is it a reflection on the composition of those immigrants? If these Africans and Asians were the most (or more) competent members of their home countries, then they would be successful in America too.

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<p>The advantage is that these immigrants do not/did not know they were considered to be inferior to whites. Dude, I am not here to school you in history. Make an effort and inform yourself.</p>

<p>EDIT:

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This is like Kent Hovind’s evolution challenge. If you’re going to define it this way, then there’s nothing I can do because based on your view of race, you will always say, “Race influenced that!”

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It just means you are done. I am not saying that there are no other components to the problem; I am saying that you failed in that post because you failed to give an example that proved there were different components to the problem other than race.</p>

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That racism is an influence on culture does not mean that you can just write off culture as redundant and hence unimportant. Doing so means that we cannot fault those parents in Shaker Heights for having a suboptimal educational philosophy, that they are blameless.

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<p>Instead of just asserting this how about you provide some substance for your claim?</p>

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You do know, that at most of the top privates where AA is practiced, the graduation rate for Blacks and Whites are very similar? Go look at Hawkettes previous post. Very funny how you find one example that seems to support your conclusion while leaving out others that don't.

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<p>Bourne,</p>

<p>Yes, I do know this. The JBHE link that Newjack88 (Hawkette?) posted clearly shows this. I don’t dispute any claim you make about “top privates.” In fact, my “one example” does not challenge your claim as my example was a public university. (Two, to be precise.) So, I don’t think it’s funny. It’s just sloppy reading.</p>

<p>May I remind you that according to that same source, “…the nationwide college graduation rate for black students stands at an appallingly low rate of 43 percent.* This figure is 20 percentage points below the 63 percentage rate for white students. On this front, the only positive news is that over the past three years the black student graduation rate has improved by four percentage points.” [url=<a href="http://www.jbhe.com/preview/winter07preview.html%5DSource%5B/url"&gt;http://www.jbhe.com/preview/winter07preview.html]Source[/url&lt;/a&gt;]. Clearly, the “top privates” are counterbalanced by other universities, some of which are top publics.</p>

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So what you're trying to prove is that the parents of white children are more involved and more active than the parents of black children. But race plays no part, right? Or excuse me, culture. Which coincidentally happens to be a "racial" culture as it appears in your argument.

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I'm sorry. You quoting something incites assumptions of understanding and agreement. Why the hell would you quote someone if you don't believe his cultural assertions….

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<p>Are you asking me whether I’m trying to prove something or whether I believe the findings? These are two separate questions, and since I’m not sure exactly what it is that you’re asking, I’ll answer the two questions. First, as I said, I’m not trying to prove anything. Second, yes, I do believe the findings, but that doesn’t mean I’m trying to prove something.</p>

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<p>If college admissions consider of the high school you attended in context, like the number of AP classes available, competitiveness, opportunities, etc., then why can't they consider an applicant's race in context? I'm assuming you support the former, but not the latter. Why?</p>

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<p>Bourne,</p>

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No. With those statements in conjunction with your quotes, you're saying their are significantly fewer qualified blacks than the other respective races.

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<p>Please provide these quotes. Since I’m denying your claims and you’re making them, the burden of proof is on you.</p>

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My argument all along was to use race only in the instances that it can be seen to have been a negative.

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Then you’ve contradicted yourself. Was it not you who wrote, “You can't say that subjectivity is valid in some cases, but wrong in others. You can't take into account different factors for one applicant -- and refuse to do the same for another”?

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Why do we use socio-economic status? If those findings are the same for race -- than in certain instances I would agree with giving the same preference for either.</p>

<p>I'm comparing all subjective factors. I don't think it's fair to use one socio-ec status and not use race if they're both found to influence academic performance.

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<p>I’m confused. Is this an attempt to respond to my claim that you’ve contradicted yourself? First, you said that we “can’t say that subjectivity is valid in some cases, but wrong in others.” Now, you say that we should “use race only in the instances that it can be seen to have been a negative.” In other words, you’re now saying that we can say that subjectivity is valid in some cases but wrong in others. Contradiction.</p>

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<p>Newjack88,</p>

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So then it is easier for a person to graduate from Harvard than from that four-year school?

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<p>Considering that Harvard’s four-year rate is in the 90s whereas my local university’s rate is in the 20s, yes, it is easier for a person to graduate from Harvard than from my local university. Remember that we’re not talking about which school is harder. We’re talking about which school is harder to get out of. There’s a difference.</p>

<p>Please show me the link in the CC Michigan subforum where you wrote, “Michigan is not an elite school.” I would like to see the responses. Perhaps you define elite differently than I do, but to me, a high-ranking school is elite. Moreover, none of the Supreme Court Justices in 2003 were Michigan alums, but the Court’s opinion clearly noted that Michigan is an elite school.</p>

<p>It’s actually comical that you don’t understand the significance of your source not supporting your claim. It means you don’t know how to evaluate your sources, since you picked one that didn’t even back up your statements. The JBHE source you provided has a table of colleges and universities with the highest black graduation rates. Except for the University of Virginia, all the schools listed are private ones. Are Berkeley, Michigan, and Virginia the only top ranked publics? I don’t think so. So, in this case, Virginia is the outlier for “it is markedly different in value from the others of the sample”; it’s public whereas the others are private. There are many more top ranked publics than just those three great universities, so it seems that it is the norm rather than the exception for top ranked publics to not have such high black graduation rates. That is, Berkeley and Michigan are not outliers.</p>

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Is it a psychological advantage or is it a reflection on the composition of those immigrants? If these Africans and Asians were the most (or more) competent members of their home countries, then they would be successful in America too.

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The advantage is that these immigrants do not/did not know they were considered to be inferior to whites. Dude, I am not here to school you in history. Make an effort and inform yourself.

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<p>Talk about irony. Obviously you don’t know much about world history. How many African nations are former European colonies? Hmm, I don’t know about you, but if my nation lost its sovereignty, became a colony, and started teaching about white superiority, I might start thinking that I’m considered to be inferior to whites.</p>

<p>In the case of China, the last dynasty got a rude awakening in the middle of the nineteenth century when it was soundly defeated by the British in the Opium Wars. No matter how you spin it, China had been totally humiliated by the West. It had to pay an indemnity for losing the war, loan territory, and cede Hong Kong. Again, I don’t know about you, but if my nation was forced to do all those things to one country, I might also ask myself, “Whoa, am I inferior?”</p>

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<p>God you're not listening to me.</p>

<p>I never defined subjectivity in the way that you did. The context in which I used it -- Subjective factors - Socio economic status, Gender, Geographical location ... -- I'm saying, I think it's wrong to include these factors and not include race in certain contexts, or as you say "culture -- specifically racial culture", because I think they all impair someone's ability to succeed. </p>

<p>I think -- and this is what you've quoted -- the findings of John Ogbu? about the different cultural upbringing; limited involvement in child's studies -- that these differences should be accounted for somewhere down the line.</p>

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If college admissions consider of the high school you attended in context, like the number of AP classes available, competitiveness, opportunities, etc., then why can't they consider an applicant's race in context? I'm assuming you support the former, but not the latter. Why?

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<p>You seem to be suggesting that considering high school quality is no different from considering race. Once again, strict scrutiny answers your question. Race is a suspect class. It’s just not the same thing as high school quality.</p>

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If college admissions consider of the high school you attended in context, like the number of AP classes available, competitiveness, opportunities, etc., then why can't they consider an applicant's race in context? I'm assuming you support the former, but not the latter. Why?

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<p>You see ? Fabrizio? If he can get this? Why on earth can't you? Why do you keep muddling things up? </p>

<p>I'm disappointed. I guess I shouldn't have applied the same literary standards to all Georgia Tech students.</p>

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<p>Stop analyzing it legally. Answer it morally.</p>

<p>Within a context, why can't that be considered?</p>

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Considering that Harvard’s four-year rate is in the 90s whereas my local university’s rate is in the 20s, yes, it is easier for a person to graduate from Harvard than from my local university. Remember that we’re not talking about which school is harder. We’re talking about which school is harder to get out of. There’s a difference.

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<p>You can not possibly believe this. Seriously. You can't. That's the WORST -- the ABSOLUTE WORST -- conclusion I've ever seen in my life.</p>