Diversity & small colleges

Parents Forum
21

<p>accdg to the census bureau, the college age (18-24) demographics...</p>

<p>white: 62%
black: 14%
hispanic: 14%
asian: 4%
Amer. Indian/Ak Native: 1%</p>

<p>But, even though these are national numbers (2000 census): 1) the demographic pop is not evenly distributed across the states (California has a plurality); and, 2) Not all groups are equally prepared for college. For example, the largest number of hispanic children are in LA County schools, but more than 50% dropout according to LA Times.</p>

22

<p>BlueBayou:</p>

<p>As you point out, the raw numbers are somewhat misleading. For example, Swat's Admissions Dean said recently that only about 50% of African-American males finish high school nationally. So, that 14% number is automatically down to 10.5% and certainly lower still since presumably a significant percentage of Af-Am females drop out of school as well.</p>

<p>Perhaps a more useful measure might be the percentages of students in each ethnic category of the total number of students taking the SAT test last year:</p>

<p>American Indian or Alaskan Native 1%
Asian, Asian American, or Pacific Islander 9%
African American or Black 10%
Latino/Hispanic 10%
White/Other/No Response 70%</p>

<p>This would be a more accurate reflection of the actual college applicant pool.</p>

<hr>

<p>BTW, I strongly disagree with Hubbell that diversity on campus is just statistical window dressing. I would offer the examples here on College Confidential of parents who would certainly fall into the "educated, middle-class" category he describes, but because they bring a different cultural viewpoint (Af-Am, Indian, Chinese, etc.), I have personally learned a tremendous amount from their perspectives. So, just from an informal internet forum, parents like Northstarmom and Achat and others have changed the way I think, just in the course of routine conversation. For example, Northstarmom has been very enlightening in her discussions of theme dorms and HBC's. I believe that a student benefits in the same ways from working and studying in a multicultural college dorm environment.</p>

23

<p>'Mudge, I think the overwhelming majority of "decline to state" are Anglo/White students believing [incorrectly] that they'll have lower chances of admissions if they report their ethnicity. There's also a smattering of URM's who are sticking their chins out and want to "make it on their own." This theory is boosted by empirical observation at several institutions.</p>

24

<p>.....hmmm, the average aggregate Nat'v Am/Asian/Afric Am/Hispanic population share is ~30%. Disregarding distribution among groups & not including international, then of the LACs I originally posted plus Occidental, Macalester, & Swarthmore, these collleges come closest (again, USNews data):</p>

<p>Occidental 34%
Swarthmore 32%
Amherst 29%
Pomona 28%
Williams 27%
Haverford 26%</p>

<p>In relooking at the data I do see the points on Asian representation and internationals....I'll post those shortly.</p>

<p>[But, rest assured, while these numbers are fun to sift thru in an effort to better understand the playing field, its the more subjective aspects discussed on this thread that I feel are most important.]</p>

25

<p>Agree that numbers don't tell the whole story. Can someone come up with the citation for the article last year that pointed out that at a majority of elite schools "African American" enrollments is comprised mostly of recent immigrants from the Caribean or Africa? Not that these kids don't add another element.... but that for the most part, recent immigrants to the US at elite schools have similar "stories". Net, you could have three students, one black, one white, one Asian, all of whom arrived in the US as babies, children of college education/professional parents, grew up middle class but intensely upwardly mobile -- not quite as diverse a group as it may appear on the surface once skin color is removed from the mix.</p>

<p>At my college in the 70's we had a huge contingent of students from Saudi Arabia and the gulf states. They seemed to add a nice element of diversity until you realized that most of them had grown up in London or in Fifth Avenue apartments in NYC; drove expensive sports cars and partied in nightclubs over the weekend; went to fancy resorts on vacation, etc. Net-- just like the other "rich kids" on campus, and their presence didn't add much in the way of a third world perspective except for the Filipino nannies they'd had growing up.</p>

26

<p>well, interested Dad, I am not against 'diversity', but I agree with blossom that going to, let's say, SWARTHMORE, where you have a black physician's son attending with an asian lawyers daughter and an international investment bankers kid-and then hail that as 'diverse' is really laughable-they are three peas in a pod. But if having those three upper middle class kids at the school make you feel better about its diversity, good for you. About as useful as PhD production rates, if you ask me.</p>

27

<p>I have to stick up for Swarthmore a little bit. They have been the only elite LAC to show up recruiting at our high school, which is decidedly socioeconomically diverse, 40% black, 25% low enough income for federal lunch program. I don't know if anyone will end up attending, but Swarthmore is the only name school which has come to visit.</p>

28

<p>hubblellgardner-- yes, there is much, much more to the story than the numbers themselves, but this kind of analysis and discussion still is helpful to folks like me to get a grasp on the issues, being mindful of course that many other influencing factors, like the ones you cited, exist. For instance, would I say that the diversity situation at Swarthmore (32%) is 4 times better than at W&L (8%)?....well, no.....but I'd bet my paycheck that the diversity situation is significantly better.</p>

<p>Please keep in mind that slicing & dicing these numbers is part of the process of learning, at least how I do it, & I suspect how interesteddad goes about it as well. The import of these numbers is totally up for discussion, but I usually always learn something by forcing myself to analyze the numbers, regardless of how unimportant the analytical results turn out to be.</p>

29

<p>"well, interested Dad, I am not against 'diversity', but I agree with blossom that going to, let's say, SWARTHMORE, where you have a black physician's son attending with an asian lawyers daughter and an international investment bankers kid-and then hail that as 'diverse' is really laughable-they are three peas in a pod."</p>

<p>I have friends of different races who have similar socioeconomic backgrounds as mine, but we still have some major race-related differences in life experiences and outlooks.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, colleges like Swarthmore have a very hard time getting a racially and economically diverse group of students. It's very hard finding Hispanics and African Americans with the academic backgrounds that indicate they would be able to survive at Swat and the quirky intellectualism indicating they would want to go to a place like Swat.</p>

<p>Swat has to be working very hard to get the diversity that it has.</p>

<p>This is true for many of the LACs.</p>

30

<p>It seems to me that economic diversity (and international students) are that which are most likely to lend itself to enhanced academic experience, if only because the range of perspectives offered by higher income minority students are likely to be narrower. Enrolling lower income minority students is, however, an expensive proposition, not just in scholarship aid required, but in mentoring/advising, and in the long-term outreach efforts into low-income minority communities necessary to have them apply in significant numbers. It also requires changes in the way admissions departments thinks about students - gauging 'merit" against "opportunity", as well as whether the students who experienced less in the way of opportunity during their secondary educations are likely to succeed in the new environment.</p>

<p>However, as long as we do not live in a colorblind society, having articulate, high-achieving minority students from wealthier backgrounds is a good thing as well, both in erasing stereotypes in the minds of white students, and in providing more role models for minority communities.</p>

31

<p>
[quote]
Can someone come up with the citation for the article last year that pointed out that at a majority of elite schools "African American" enrollments is comprised mostly of recent immigrants from the Caribean or Africa?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>From the Harvard Magazine article Roots and Race:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090443.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090443.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>In June, a New York Times article raised a long-simmering issue: the origins and ancestry of Harvard's black students. The piece described the celebratory mood at a reunion of African-American Harvard alumni, who applauded Harvard's progress over the past three decades in enrolling larger numbers of black students. But it also noted that this mood was broken when "some speakers brought up the thorny issue of exactly who those black students are." The question arises because, even though in recent years 7 to 9 percent of Harvard's incoming freshmen (8.9 percent for the class of 2008) have been African Americans, some studies suggest that more than half of these students, and perhaps as many as two-thirds, are West Indian or African immigrants or their children. A substantial number also identify themselves as children of biracial couples.</p>

<p>I think that we are starting to paint here using some pretty broad strokes. Yes, when it comes to african americans, there are more students who are children or recent immigrants than there are kids whose families who have been in the U.S. for many generations. One reason for this is that many blacks especially those who have roots in the south are fiercely loyal to the HBCUs and send their kids to Howard, Hampton, Morehouse, Spelman, etc. I know my neice turned down a full scholarship to the university of Richmond along with some "elite LAC" admissions to attend Howard (they too gave her a full ride). She loves her school and has not regretted her decision for one second for her it has been the best 3 1/2 years (graduating in june) spent anywhere. </p>

<p>As far as the "buzz factor' was concerned her going to Howard got more buzz than my D being admitted to dartmouth, williams and amherst combined. For the record, I am not a doctor, lawyer, investment banker, etc. just regular black folk from bedford stuyvesant- brooklyn, NY. </p>

<p>However, just as there are white kids there are also black, asian, and hispanic kids at the ivies and elite LACs who are not the * physician's son/daughter, lawyers daughter and an international investment bankers kid* while D knows her share of doctors and lawyers kids of all races, she knows an awful lot of kids of all races whose parents are regular folks too .</p>

32

<p>My daughters high school is 43% white but the district is only 41%.
The free reduced lunch rate is 22% while the district is 40%.
The school however is the magnet for the most AP classes in the state and so we are fortunate enough to have virtually all the top schools coming to give spiels to the students.</p>

<p>But I agree that while diversity is not merely by color or ethnic background, the commonality of income- education level, does not mean commonality of experience. When recognizable figures like James earl Jones or Danny Glover can't get a taxi?
I have known black men who cross the street so as not to alarm single white women coming towards them, no matter your family background, to be that aware of how you feel others perceive you, has got to color your feeling about yourself.
While my daughters school is not as divided as the media likes to make it out to be, with the white and asian kids in the "honors" classes and everyone else in remedial-
I have seen teachers( and other adults) in other schools make assumptions about students based on their skin color that is harmful. The "white" ( I put it in parentheses because students are a lovely spectrum of skin/hair color and texture but some are percieved as white and some are perceived as not), students are assumed to come from families with education and money- whether or not that is true, and they are assumed to be doing well in school, with their families available and willing to help them.
The students "of color" are assumed to not have a background of education and income, and are assumed not to be able to handle more challenging classes. The parents, often have to demand that their kids be able to take the honors classes, and that the assignments have the same level of expectations as everyone else.
I am making generalizations, but it is what I have seen with my own eyes often enough that I really question the districts goal of reducing disproportionality rather than just talking about it, because they never reevaluate to see if what they are doing is working and why or why not. :(</p>

33

<p>back to mattmom's point on Davidson, I removed the Asian percentages, leaving African Am+ Hispanic+Native Am, and here are the results (with Occidental, Macalaster & Swartmore added to the OP list):</p>

<p>Occidental 23%
Williams 18%
Amherst 16%
Swarthmore 16%
Pomona 15%
Wesleyan 14%
Haverford 13%
Bowdoin 12%
Colorado Col 10%
Davidson 10%
Trinity 10%
Vassar 10%
Colgate 9%
Hamilton 9%
Conn College 8%
Denison 8%
Middlebury 8%
Dickinson 7%
Reed 7%
Richmond 7%
Skidmore 7%
Macalester 7%
Bates 5%
Bucknell 5%
Colby 5%
Kenyon 5%
Rhodes 5%
W&L 5%</p>

<p>Davidson looks a bit better here, while Vassar dropped, but all others remain in about the same position.</p>

34

<p>Papa chicken</p>

<p>If possible you should look up the common data sets at the schools you are interested in because you will see the actual # of students rather than the percentages.</p>

<p>for example;</p>

<p>Colby's freshman class of 511 students has 8 blacks, 2 native americans and 13 hispanics.</p>

<p>Over all there are 26 blacks, 7 native americans and 36 hispanics.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.colby.edu/ir/cds/cds2005.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.colby.edu/ir/cds/cds2005.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

35

<p>I guess the data that we don't have, which would seriously enrich the discussion, is the cross reference of race/ethnicity, with Pell Grant/middle-income ($40k-90k) students.</p>

36

<p>here's the breakdown of international share for the listed LACs:</p>

<p>Macalester 14 %
Middlebury 8 %
Colby 7 %
Conn College 7 %
Amherst 6 %
Bates 6 %
Wesleyan 6 %
Williams 6 %
Swarthmore 6 %
Colgate 5 %
Denison 5 %
Hamilton 5 %
Vassar 5 %
W&L 4 %
Bowdoin 3 %
Bucknell 3 %
Davidson 3 %
Dickinson 3 %
Haverford 3 %
Kenyon 3 %
Reed 3 %
Colorado Col 2 %
Pomona 2 %
Trinity 2 %
Occidental 2 %
Rhodes 1 %
Richmond 1 %
Skidmore 1 %</p>

<p>Macalester realy does make a huge effort here, as well as many of the NE LACs.</p>

<p>Adding this percentage to the Afric/Asian/Hisp/Native Am #'s yields the following:</p>

<p>Swarthmore 38%
Occidental 36%
Amherst 35%
Williams 33%
Pomona 30%
Haverford 29%
Wesleyan 29%
Macalester 27%
Bowdoin 26%
Vassar 24%
Middlebury 23%
Colgate 20%
Conn College 19%
Hamilton 19%
Trinity 18%
Colby 17%
Colorado Col 16%
Denison 16%
Bates 15%
Davidson 15%
Bucknell 14%
Dickinson 14%
Reed 14%
Skidmore 13%
Richmond 12%
W&L 12%
Kenyon 11%
Rhodes 9%</p>

<p>If one considers this to be a better representation of non-white diversity, then of course the situation looks better, especially for schools like Middlebury, but the laggards are still the laggards.</p>

37

<p>i-dad:</p>

<p>since the SAT tends to be more coastal, it might also help to look at the 2005 ACT racial/ethnic breakdown:</p>

<p>White - 75%
Af Am - 13%
Hispanic - 8%
Asian - 4%
Am Ind/Ak - 1%</p>

38

<p>mini-- good idea...I can pull the Pell grant data from the USNews database.......also, perhaps need-based-aid numbers from the Common Data Sets might be enlightening as well....will look this over in earnest later.......PC</p>

39

<p>Numbers do not tell the whole story. On many campuses URM tend to associate amongst themselves through the Greek system, clubs and their circles of friends. So while the %age of URM's may look impressive, in actuality there is far less opportunity to associate with others outside your "tribe" that expected.</p>

<p>I doubt that this has little to do with bigoted attitudes and more to do with individual preferences. Not the ideal but certainly not something that should be condemned. The thing students and administrators need to be cognizant of is to encourage a welcoming atmospehere for all student to broaden there social horizons.</p>

40

<p>"mini-- good idea...I can pull the Pell grant data from the USNews database.......also, perhaps need-based-aid numbers from the Common Data Sets might be enlightening as well....will look this over in earnest later.......PC"</p>

<p>Doubt that you can get it sorted by race/ethnicity, though. And, it should be noted, the number of middle income students ($40-90k) at some colleges (Amherst being the prime example, but I'll bet it's true at my d.'s school as well; certainly at USC, and maybe at some of the Ivies, I'm thinking Princeton and Columbia in particular) is even lower than the number of Pell grantees.</p>