<p>What you say is not necessarily the truth, because it depends on what someone is looking for. Yes, the ivy schools tend to admit kids well ahead of the bell curve, but you are assuming that people apply to the Ivies only because of the ‘brand’ so to speak, the idea that these are the elites, etc…people apply to the Ivies for a variety of reasons,including the fact that they often have great departments within them and great teachers. </p>
<p>More importantly, you have to be careful about what best of the best is, because what someone did in high school in terms of grades and such indicates only that they have done great on those measures…but want to know a dirty little secret? There are a lot of people who go to Ivies who don’t turn out to be the best of the best, who end up either outright leaving (or being told to leave) because they can’t cut it, or later on end up doing pretty humdrum in real life (and conversely, there are a lot of people who don’t go to Ivies who do really amazing things with their lives). The problem with elite labels (if best of the best in fact means that ) is in determining what that means in terms of the end result, is someone simply the ‘best of the best’ because they went to an Ivy school, or any school? Are these the greatest of humanity, or simply people who had a measure of something the school felt would be a good fit…big difference. A lot of great people have come out of Ivy league schools, for sure, but a lot of graduates end up not doing all that much, especially given their backround, while people who may not have ‘risen to the top’ in their college search end up doing amazing things…Ivy admission simply means that the student had the qualifications that at the time the admissions people thought was a good fit for the school, pure and simple. Yeah, in the ‘real world’ there are people who are impressed that someone went to Harvard or Yale or Princeton, there are some hiring managers who get impressed with that on a resume and use that as a hiring criteria (and more then a few times end up with egg on their face), but for the most part what sets someone apart down the road as being ‘the best and brightest’ are those who achieve things, whatever that is.</p>
<p>Although I pretty much agree with several points I’ve read on this thread, I find that post #37 is very on the spot. I’m currently studying a LLB degree, and many fellow students are applying for LLM degrees in HYP and similar schools. The sad part is, that although some of the bright minds I’m sure will be accepted, I’ve also encountered several BIG NAME or BIG MONEY students applying AND being accepted. I find it to be discouraging. I’m planning on making a career change, but I can’t help feeling sorry for those people who maybe have good enough grades and EC’s, but that don’t have special hooks or recomendations or other stuff like that.
I know a particular case of a pretty “lazy” (trying not to say anything worse) kid whose even been caught cheating and everything in college, but because his dad is a big shot lawyer he’s not only getting the best tutors, recs, quite possible EC’s (which could even be fake, for I know he’s not involved in any activity), and fair enough grades (yes, he sometimes gets graded better because professors know his parents). He is applying to Harvard and other similar schools… chances are at least one of these top notch schools will accept him. Other kids with less opportunities than him, but better students will probably not. All the kids from his clique are the same.
I also know many kids that seem to have a checklist: good grades (mostly A’s, few B’s), EC’s, Social Service (mandatory in my college since we’re a catholic school), great test scores, work experience, great rec’s, so on…so on. I don’t even think they enjoy what they’re doing, all they have in mind is the long run: ivy.
Of course I’d love the opportunity to attend one of these schools, and no I’ve never applied. But from where I’m sitting OP, I think they accept one of the following:
The real deal: great over the top students
big name or money
real ambitious people: that work really hard to look appealing.
Yes, not really normal students. </p>
<p>I know I might be wrong, I’m just stating my point of view. I have nothing against top notch schools, I’d love to attend later on one myself (you know, when I can pay for it ). But anyways, they do seem to be bius to one of the above categories I mentioned.</p>
<p>1) Harvard, Yale and Princeton are considered three of the most prestigious universities in the entire country, if not the world. What makes these schools so prestigious is the fact that you need to be the best of the absolute best to get in. If they just started accepting average, “normal” people, then there wouldn’t really be anything so special about the schools, and just about anyone could get in. It’s like what a previous poster said, HYP is like playing for the Yankees; there’s hundreds of thousands of good baseball players all over the country, but only the very best and most talented make the team. </p>
<p>2) Why is it that only Harvard, Yale and Princeton are the only three schools you care about? You realize there’s plenty of Ivies, right? And what about Stanford, MIT, John Hopkins, Northwestern, Univesity of Chicago, CalTech, Vanderbilt, USC, Berkley, UCLA or Carnegie Melon? I’d say those are some pretty decent schools if you ask me.</p>
<p>Fact is, you make it seem like you need to be a freak to be accepted to an Ivy school, but that’s not the case. Three kids in my class went to Ivy Schools, and if you didn’t know where they went you would assume they were just normal, everyday teenagers. Two of them got into because they had incredible grades and SAT scores, and made the nationals in their robotics group. The other got in because along with exceptional grades, he was a national ranked track athlete.</p>
<p>The kids who deserve to go to Harvard are kids who actually do take interest in an activity or subject and run with it. I agree, I really wanted to go to Stanford during my Sophomore year but I had nothing that stood out, I still hadn’t matured enough to find a subject that I really loved such as a charity etc. In my opinion: the children who really do enjoy math enough to do summer programs are the ones who should go to MIT, not people who just get their parents backing on doing “whatever it takes.” I think these types of kids really are a minority at a Ivy school though, and the ones who succeed are the ones who can seriously enjoy doing what they do, however cliche that may sound.</p>
<p>Just don’t step so far out of your comfort zone in things that you hold no interest in. I myself have that sort of hopeless mindset, but I’m applying to Stanford anyways, without having started any charities that make tens of thousands of dollars, and I certainly enjoy my summer more without the stress of a summer program (plus they cost thousands of dollars except the very best ones, so that is a bit of a skewed example). I’ll just show them that I really care about going to their school and maybe I’ll make it <3</p>
<p>But the way you describe it, you make it sound like the ‘normal’ kids are lazy students. I myself am seriously motivated to do well in school, but I’m not even the top 5% of my class. I do what I can, and EC wise I work and do Newspaper, Yearbook, and some writing stuff. But yeah my type of person isn’t a Harvard student, I’m thinking Tulane or Vandy is possible though And that’s just what I’ll make realistic options <3</p>
<p>This process is very simple: Without a hook, a student with 2000 - 2100 SAT scores and just good GPA, will not get into: Harvard, MIT, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Caltech. Period.
Hook meaning: Top athletes, legacies, URM, Big donor (z list), and that is it. My daughter’s school sent 7 students to harvard last year. I mean 2 of them are taking a gap year, and they came off the wait list really late. There were no surprises about the kids who got into Harvard. They were the very, very top students in a very hard and competitive high school! I would like to see one student who got in to harvard last year with solid stats, not amazing, and no hook. I don’t believe there is one.</p>
<p>And on top of this, George W. Bush was destined to be the president of the United States, and Harvard accepted him because they knew he would one name live up to the name of a Harvard graduate. When looking at a pool of less well known applicants, they cant assume that an applicant in particular will be the next president of the US, and if there’s enough what you call, “normal” kids at Harvard, then the school will drop its US News rank and its reputation in general, which is the last thing that the admissions officers and school want to happen.</p>
<p>Don’t worry about those URM’s, those seats are reserved for them and you won’t get it anyway. Many of those lower than normal stats students will not survive in Ivies, and the schools also know that. </p>
<p>I went to a third tier college because I barely finished my HS overseas, they took me in as part of URM quota, because I was put in the section most URM resides. At that time, the school also have to prove their cultural diversity so they took in some full ride URM. I was roommated with one of them. By the time sophomore turned around, all but a few of those URMs are gone. Maybe one or two girls survived the rigor of the acadamics, but none of the boys in my class stayed.</p>
<p>Admittedly, the sytem is imperfect and at times seems downright corrupt. </p>
<p>Nonetheless, the OP seems to be attacking the idea of a meritocratic admissions process. I find the post bizarre. Perhaps major league baseball should start signing normal pitchers who throw 50 mph fastballs- why should it be only guys who throw in the 90s.</p>
<p>I would just note that “normal” kids also don’t get into the United States Military Academy–it’s just that West Point has a different set of criteria than Harvard, and accepts a different kind of “elite” student. The same is true for Juilliard, for example.</p>
<p>I think we all probably know great kids with many strengths who didn’t get into the top college they hoped for–the fact is that there are just a huge number of great kids.</p>
<p>Don’t worry about it. Apparently, they don’t take exceptional middle class students who must (thus won’t) take a loan out to pay for their “expected family contribution.”</p>
I still find it odd that people take out loans every day to buy brand new Ford Mustangs, but don’t want to take out a loan to get a Harvard diploma.</p>
<p>music - I was talking to the OP when I used “you”, not as a generalization that everyone who apply for the Ivies do so for the prestige. </p>
<p>And OP - I’m curious as to what you would use to refer to those who actually get into HYP. If “normal” kids can’t get in, then those who do are what? abnormals? Freaks of nature? Because if what music says is right, then even those who do get in might end up failing/dropping out, just like a “normal” person would.</p>
<p>I think we need exceptional academic institutions like Harvard, Duke, Yale, Princeton, et al.</p>
<p>If they lowered the bar to accept students with average grades, then how could they remain exceptional? In effect, they would become the WalMarts of academia.</p>
<p>I just came across this thread, and the premise is cynical and absurd. As others have said, many high school students truly love doing charity/community service work. To say that they only do it for their resume just reflects the OP himself.</p>
<p>But beyond that, I am really not sure what the OP’s point is in the first place.
Well duh!!! These are the most exceptional schools, of course they are for the most exceptional students. What a revelation!! Why is the conclusion unpleasant? Is he saying that the very best of the best schools should take less than the best of the best students? There are thousands of universities in this country, at all levels. What makes the OP think that an “average” student (and what he describes isn’t average anyway) deserves to go to a tippy-top school? What did they do to earn that? Why should they take the place of a student that has worked hard and/or is naturally smarter? No wonder this country is falling apart. Too many people think they deserve the best when they have done nothing to earn it.</p>
<p>I like how people are “HYP are only for exceptionally talented students” in CC. Kinda preaching the choir don’t you think?</p>
<p>You don’t need to be talented to go to those schools; it really is just a matter of how much you care. There are probably well over a million people (worldwide) capable of having 1000hrs of EC with 4.0gpa, IF they actually cared enough. Truth of the matter, is most don’t. I came to CC, looking to find some help on some AP US related stuff. Several months later, after hearing of people who study hardcore for the SAT for months just to get accepted HYP, I have to the conclusion it really is just a matter of how much you care.</p>
<p>"Don’t worry about those URM’s, those seats are reserved for them and you won’t get it anyway. Many of those lower than normal stats students will not survive in Ivies, and the schools also know that. "</p>
<p>Don’t be so sure. Contrary to what you and many people on this board seem to believe, your high school GPA and SAT scores have far less bearing on how well you do in college…even at the elite colleges than one may think. </p>
<p>More importantly, with extreme few exceptions…their importance fades to irrelevance the moment you arrive on campus to begin your undergraduate career. </p>
<p>My high school classmates and I encountered plenty of well-heeled private school and well-off suburban public school graduates who struggled through courses we felt were quite manageable or even easy at various Ivies and my SLAC. I confirmed this firsthand when I took a stats course at an Ivy while working full-time and couldn’t understand why so many Ivy undergrad econ majors were panicked about failing it when I felt it was manageable and ended up acing it…and I was a C/D math student in HS. </p>
<p>Conversely, we also encountered plenty of URMs and non-traditional students from working-class backgrounds with seemingly low HS GPA/SAT stats who ended up excelling at our respective schools to the point we were in awe and wanted to emulate their example…even in STEM majors. </p>
<p>In addition, I knew many people with low HS stats who later excelled in Ivy grad/professional schools once they finished their undergrad at 3rd and 4th tier undergrads. I know of at least one who is now an academic teaching at an Ivy and a few others with Ivy/Ivy-type law and business degrees who are excelling in their respective professions.</p>
). But anyways, they do seem to be bius to one of the above categories I mentioned.</p>