Do i stand for a chance?

Colleges & Universities A-Z Smith College
21

<p>HZ, it's virtually impossible to say. Many ED applicants at many colleges probably receive the same FinAid offer that they would have received had they applied RD. But--and I suspect it's unproveable--there is a very widespread perception that many students at many colleges receive offers that are at least slightly inferior to what they would have received had they applied RD. Others (Mini?) may have some actual hard data on this, I do not.</p>

<p>Where is Smith in all of this? While I can find FinAid very annoying in some respects, they seem to be "equal opportunity" annoying, playing the cards pretty straight to a large degree.</p>

<p>Btw, don't let our concern with FinAid obscure one key fact: I think all of us would agree that Smith is a great place to spend four years and that you would be a great addition to the Smith community. </p>

<p>My D is probably towards one extreme in her opinions but after two years, she wouldn't want to have gone anywhere else.</p>

22

<p>I called the financial office at Smith and asked about the availability of financial aid at this late time in the admission year and was told that financial was based on the formula and not the time of application]]</p>

<p>Thanks Un-soccrer-mom. I believe this is what I was attempting to convey. ED, RD or transfers are all treated equally when accessing the amount of aid awarded based Smith’s formula. One caveat; after admissions has admitted about 95% of the 1st yrs, they access how much of the aid allotment has been allocated. There’s a very complicated formula Smith uses to obtain aid awarded, expected yield of need based students, etc. If smith believes the aid has been depleted, or close to it, the final 5% of apps are admitted on ability to pay full costs or close to it, however; this doesn’t occur every yr. Many yrs every student is admitted regardless of ability to pay. This fact might or might not be pertinent in a students/parents opinion when considering RD or ED</p>

<p>Hz_paula, your other consideration is TDs very important comment “ "Meeting financial aid" can mean lots of things; if one college is giving you eighty percent loans, another 80 percent grants, it can mean a big difference to the financial burden a student will carry after graduation...but the college giving 80 percent loans has still "met 100 percent of financial need."</p>

<p>Hz_paula, Smith offers the largest portion of aid in the form of grants in lieu of loans.</p>

<p><a href="http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=1376&profileId=2%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=1376&profileId=2&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Financial Aid Statistics
 Full-time freshman enrollment: 615
 Number who applied for need-based aid: 466
 Number who were judged to have need: 366
 Number who were offered aid: 366
 Number who had full need met: 366
 Average percent of need met: 100%
 Average financial aid package: $29,183
 Average need-based loan: $2,058
 Average need-based scholarship or grant award: $25,169
 Average non-need based aid: $3,465
 Average indebtedness at graduation: $25,023 </p>

<p>Use this website to research all your colleges.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/splash%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeboard.com/splash&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

23

<p>Your SATs qualify you for an Ivy. English isn't your 1st language so that will be considered when viewing your writing score. But are you applying to an Ivy for the sake it’s an Ivy? Dartmouth is very rural and has a prevalent Greek scene. I would certainly take into consideration.</p>

24

<p>"But--and I suspect it's unproveable--there is a very widespread perception that many students at many colleges receive offers that are at least slightly inferior to what they would have received had they applied RD. Others (Mini?) may have some actual hard data on this, I do not."</p>

<p>There is no hard data on this (for obvious reasons - there are no two applicants exactly the same in every respect, whose financial situation is exactly the same in every respect, where offers can be compared.)</p>

<p>I can tell you from personal experience that, among comparable colleges, all guaranteeing to meet 100% of need, the offers we received (and we are an easy case - no businesses, extra real estate, expensive houses) varied by as much as $47k over four years, with loan amounts from $0 to $17.9k - all colleges supposedly using the same methodology. So it is my personal view that, if financial aid is a big issue, you don't do yourself any favors by not putting yourself into a position where you can compare offers.</p>

<p>Average loan amounts from these websites or books don't tell you a lot either. First of all, they only tell you the student's indebtedness, not the parents'. High levels of student indebtedness may reflect that the student takes out loans when the parents' economic situation is such that they can't. (i.e. they are poor.) Secondly (and this may seem counterintutive), high average loan amounts may reflect MORE generosity on the part a college, rather than less. Low average loan amounts likely mean that the college has accepted large numbers of students in the $120-$160k income range, for whom the institution has offered small loans. Indeed, Princeton's "no loan" policy is aimed primarily at this population, some of whom were taking larger scholarship offers at the Vanderbilts of the world. High average loan amounts may reflect colleges accepting larger numbers of students who are actually poor or near-poor, and finding a way to meet their need through a combination of grants, loans, and work-study. (Hence, Smith's 28% of the student body on Pell Grants, compared with Princeton's 9%, and Harvard's 7.4%.)</p>

25

<p>varied by as much as $47k over four years, with loan amounts from $0 to $17.9k - all colleges supposedly using the same methodology.]]]</p>

<p>I'm curious about something mini b/c I value your opinion. With all the amazing advantages and opportunities your daughter probably received over attending another college --e.g. producing an opera--would it be worth the 47k to attended Smith if they were the college that offered to lowest aid package?</p>

<p>A ask b/c the conversation comes up time and again among my friends- cost vs. prestigious and /best fit/ college.</p>

26

<p>Good question. My d. turned down Williams, which, while it doesn't much in the way of opera, has a fantastic music composition faculty, some of whom my d. had known for years (and was recruiting her.) It had been on the top of her list until she visited (we actually visited three times!) Stayed over a Thursday night - the alcohol thing, coupled with the heavy athletic emphasis, and lack of economic diversity (she had already spent a year at Evergreen, so she knew what she was looking at) made it go from the top of the list to the bottom. </p>

<p>What sold her on Smith (as opposed to unselling her on other places) was the visit - they created a new STRIDE position specifically for her right on the spot, and having all the faculty in their offices to talk with prospective students was like nothing else she had experienced anywhere else. She also stayed over a Thursday night, and the contrast was huge. </p>

<p>What also turned out to be a surprise plus (when making decisions) was the town. She had initially told us she was looking for very rural. (Williams, Bard, etc.) But the town, and especially, the very active Friends Meeting in town made a huge difference (and one we - the parents - basically hadn't had on our radar screen.) She has since parlayed that to position on a national Friends body, and travels all over the east coast to attend meetings, making friends all oer the place. </p>

<p>We could have afforded any of the places she applied, though the lowest would have been a stretch.</p>

<p>"Worth it" is in the mind of the one doing the valuing. I can easily imagine her having a successful time elsewhere. Having the extra money in pocket has opened up other opportunities though - Smith helped fund her travels and work in India, Thailand, and Cambodia last summer, but we would have found it difficult to make up for the lack of summer earnings if it wasn't for Smith's generosity.</p>

27

<p>Laurel, I meant to thank you for your comment quoted below, not the one I quoted in post #17-- Sorry. I need to stay away from the puter very late at night--too many mistakes :)</p>

<p>"The parents here are just answering the questions out of a desire to be helpful to prospective students and they put a lot of time and work into it -- so they should be thanked for that"</p>

<p>Mini--Thanks for the reply.</p>

28

<p>RoadlessTraveled, in post #15 you wrote "Personally, I’d much rather pay a few more dollars per yr. to assure I was able to attend my 1st choice college" </p>

<p>This may be true for affluent families, but you have to keep in mind that for many students this is not an option. I have many friends who made their final college choices based solely on the financial aid packages they received. I myself would not be attending Smith, which was by far my 1st choice school, without the excellent aid package they offered me. </p>

<p>I doubt that the original poster would be in a position to "pay a few more dollars" a year (based on the info she supplied), no matter how much she wanted to attend a school.</p>

29

<p>I agree with your points RLT, but especially your last point.</p>

<p><strong>But for others, as with many things in life, sometimes you need to follow your heart, not your wallet, to achieve happiness both in the present and the future. Money is replaceable. The college you attend and the happiness, friends and memories you incur lasts for a lifetime and are irreplaceable.</strong></p>

<p>That is exactly why I'm attending college period, and Smith specifically. I did not need college to be successful career-wise. I was able to "retire" at an extremely young age because of good timing and stock options. I'm at Smith simply to be there and soak up every bit of living that experience that I can. IMHO, you should choose a school that will enrich your total life experience. There are lots of ways to make money without even going to college. </p>

<p><strong>Could she have reached the level she has without the prestigious and highly respected colleges? It’s conceivable. And the thought the best will always rise to the top no matter what college they attend does have some validity.</strong></p>

<p>Not only conceivable, but it's often been done without the college degree at all (I am NOT advocating skipping college!).</p>

<p>Please see: <a href="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1186981,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1186981,00.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_22/b3885011_mz001.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_22/b3885011_mz001.htm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_15/b3878084_mz021.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_15/b3878084_mz021.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Of the 5 "Good" CEOs profiled by Time a couple of years ago during the height of the corporate financial scandal's, Jim was not just the only one without an MBA -- he has no college degree at all.</p>

<p>Sorry for what may seem to be a shameless plug and for going so far off-topic from the original post, but he's my hero. :-)</p>

<p>hmm....really wierd how my post is listed before yours when you posted first.</p>

30

<p>I doubt that the original poster would be in a position to "pay a few more dollars" a year (based on the info she supplied), no matter how much she wanted to attend a school.]]</p>

<p>I’m sorry if you misunderstood my thoughts--my apologies. I simply meant a few extra dollars in loans that can be amortized over many yrs may be more than worth it in the long run for certain students. I wasn’t speaking about Hz_paula specifically. She may qualify for a full ride.</p>

<p>My wife attended Smith and a top 3 grad program. Both were far more expensive alternatives over other colleges she was accepted, but the decision to incur substantial loans (she was not from an affluent family--far from it) has paid her back exponentially over the yrs b/c many companies, consciously or unconsciously, in her field do take into consideration the college one attended for their corporate, or health related facility resume. I won’t link the web site, but one company she worked for has <em>zero</em> sr executives listed on the sr management resume web page that didn’t attend a top college, B or Med school. It’s referred to as CEO arrogance. </p>

<p>Could she have reached the level she has without the prestigious and highly respected colleges?. It’s conceivable. And the thought the best will always rise to the top no matter what college they attend does have some validity. That’s another debate</p>

<p>Yes, her loans were an annoyance for a time. But the return for her has far outweighed the minor cash flow issues she (we) had for a few (ok, more than a few) yrs.</p>

<p>During Google’s formative yrs, they only hired from the top colleges --i.e. Ivies, MIT, Caltech, Stanford, etc. The practice may still be occurring today in some form. Although I have a friend that was hired at Google who attended a top 50 low tier college, but he had substantial work experience, was the national Jeopardy champion and had won an Emmy. I imagine that counted for something. ;)</p>

<p>I have another friend who attended MIT and was informed by the CEO, without hesitation, he was hired over the competition b/c of his MIT degree. I know what is compensation is, and the substantial loans incurred to attend MIT have returned well over mid 7 figures in total compensation in the last 10-15 yrs. In his view, I can almost guarantee, to him, the substantial loan amount he incurred was more than worth the short term repayment burden, </p>

<p>MLB, I am, of course, relaying only a couple of examples and by no means should it be construed attending a top college or grad school is the road to wealth and happiness. After all, there are more CEO’s at the fortune 500 companies who attended UW Madison than HBS. </p>

<p>But for some students, borrowing more to attend a certain college for future goals or achieving extreme happiness and contentment (fit) at their dream college might make perfect sense in their minds.</p>

<p>I borrowed substantially more than some might have deemed necessary to buy a house in a superb school district. Was it worth the extra cost? Dunno, never will, But my daughter was accepted to Smith and many other top LACs and offered large merit awards at lower tier colleges. I believe the school system was partly responsible for that, and the h/s curriculum and outstanding teachers made her far more prepared over some students for the rigorous course work and writing skills required at Smith. In my view a larger loan was more than worth the sacrifice. Sometimes investment vs. return is not computable in analytical terms. You have you have to make decisions on your 6th sense or intuition.</p>

<p>MLB, you were fortunate the aid and college was a perfect match. But for some students, borrowing more to attend a certain college for future goals or achieving extreme happiness and contentment (fit) at their dream college might make perfect sense.</p>

<p>As with many things in life, sometimes you need to follow your heart, not your wallet, to achieve happiness both in the present and the future. Money is replaceable. The college you attend and the happiness, friends and memories you incur lasts for a lifetime and are irreplaceable.</p>

<p>.</p>

31

<p>Not only conceivable, but it's often been done without the college degree at all ]]</p>

<p>Some positions my wife has held require an MBA and or an MD, But I agree with you, Jim, Gates, Dell, etc. etc., are all examples of very successful entrepreneurs/CEOs without degrees. Minor point, they all founded the companies and were not applying for a sr mangement position. When Gates needed to add to Sr mgmt, he brought in Balmer, an HBS MBA</p>

<p>[[hmm....really wierd how my post is listed before yours when you posted first.]]</p>

<p>My fault, as usual. Sorry ;) I reposted my original post after making corrections. I didn’t see you had posted a reply.</p>

<p>A agree with you about Jim. The corporate culture he has created and the way he treats employees is nothing short of astounding.</p>

32

<p>My personal opinion which has evolved from financial aid packages I have seen from similar school for the same student, is that ED students should not apply ED, and if they do so, they understand that there is that risk of a package that does not meet your needs could be offered. There is also the complicating issue that you are an international student which makes you ineligible for government grants, loans and programs. I do not know Smith's policy for international students, but many schools have very limited funds set aside for that category. I suggest you e-mail Smith's financial aid office and ask how you stand for financial aid, given that you are an international student. That may make all of the ED/RD talk dilemma moot. I believe there are only small number of schools that accept international students on a need blind basis. Also there are schools that do offer generous scholarships that do include international students. You may want to get a list of those schools before you compile your list if you need a considerable amount of financial aid. I don't believe you can even get a student visa to study here unless you can show how you are going to pay for your education, so that is a critical part of your application process.</p>

<p>Going back to ED, although you can back out of an ED contract for insufficient aid reasons, it is really a hassle. You're getting close to the holiday season at that point when the admissions office is bombarded with paperwork. And Smith does put your name on the ED list that is circulated to other colleges, so you app can be dropped at those institutions even before you notify them that you are back in the running. Yes, it can all be fixed, but there are always complications, mistakes and problems, and when you are going against a tide (the ED rules), the chances of mishaps increase. </p>

<p>If you want to study in the US, it would be wise to research financial aid rules at various colleges, and according prepare your list. You may need more schools on it than most kids because your selectivity index is going to be much lower than a US students because of the aid issue.</p>

33

<p>Goodness, that was sloppy typing. In the first sentence I meant to say "that financial aid students should not apply ED...".</p>