<p>Since the other tucker max link is closed, was he right in saying that lawyers generally have a low job satisfaction rate? If so why is this?</p>
<p>Just like any other profession, there are those who love it, those who merely tolerate it ("it's a living") and those who wonder what ever made them decide to go to law school. Sometimes, a single lawyer might feel all of these ways depending on the day.</p>
<p>"Sometimes, a single lawyer might feel all of these ways depending on the day." Or even the time of day: I experienced all of those feelings yesterday.</p>
<p>but is it true that overall they have one of the lowest job satisfaction rates in America?</p>
<p>So say some, but my guess is that people who like to complain are naturally attracted to the profession, and would have similar gripes about any alternative career paths they had chosen.</p>
<p>i've done 3 law internships over the past few years, and oddly (or not so oddly enough), every lawyer just tells me "why don't you just go to med school?"</p>
<p>hahaha Greybeard.</p>
<p>Well, I want to be a corporate attorney desperately, and I'm a sarcastic cynic who is never satisfied with anything. So what does that say?</p>
<p>( I'm willing to put in the hours for the money though; the hours may be one reason why many lawyers are dissatisfied. The money--esp. in corporate law--is worth it. Then I will invest in stock, and hopefully retire early.)</p>
<p>Does anyone have any reports about job satisfaction and different professions, or maybe even within law itself?</p>
<p>I don't know of any reports that measure job satisfaction across fields (or in any field, for that matter) within law, but I am a corporate lawyer who loves what she does (and there are relatively few shes doing what I do). I love the constant challenges, the novel situations that I am confronted with every day and the learning I do all of the time when faced (as I often am) with changes in law, new industries in which I do deals or new situations. Yes, I spent years as a junior and mid-level attorney working 90+ hours a week, and that definitely pushed me to the breaking point more often than I care to admit. Looking back, I don't know how I made it through other than sheer stubbornness. I always loved the work, though, and that kept me going. Now, I still have the not-as-occasional-as-I-would-like late nights and weekend work, but it's much more manageable for me now. I've made changes in my career to reduce my hours a bit, which also means that I've made sacrifices in terms of salary and bonus, but I don't regret my choices for a moment. I love that I am an integral part of my clients' businesses, and I am consulted and brought in with the team every step of the way. It is very rewarding professionally and financially, though I will certainly never be wealthy doing what I do. </p>
<p>My only advice for someone interested in corporate law and working in the big law firms in big cities with the big paychecks is that you had better really, truly enjoy the work, because no amount of money is going to be worth the sacrifices you will have to make in terms of your friendships, romantic relationships, family, health and well being unless you are going to work every day to learn something, to conquer challenges and to do your very best for your clients (even the ones who are just awful to work with). There will be no taking days off because you have bronchitis or because you are running a 102 degree fever, you will be on airplanes eating crappy food in airports all too often, you will miss workouts, you will miss your anniversary dinner with your boyfriend/girlfriend/wife/husband (who had better be the most understanding person in the world -- and many who are not investment bankers or lawyers can't possibly understand why you need to be at work until 4 a.m.), you will miss your grandparents' 50th wedding anniversary, you will cancel your vacation at the last minute and you will not bother complaining about any of these issues because everyone else with whom you work will have experienced the same (no sympathy there). Like I said, you had better get a huge kick out of the work you will be doing. I did, and I still do, and I'm very happy with my career choice. </p>
<p>My best advice is not to do it for the money. You get paid a lot because you are asked to make a lot of sacrifices for your work. Go in with your eyes wide open. Here's a good experiment: In order to bill about 75 hours a week (a slower week), you probably need to actually be at work 85 hours a week at your NYC law firm (because not every moment is billable -- lunch, bathroom breaks, walking down the hall to the library, coffee runs, etc. - and keeping in mind that padding your billable hours is grounds to get fired, escorted out of the office immediately and disbarred). Let's assume that you are going to get Sunday off -- that means that Monday through Saturday you are going to be at the office on average a little bit more than 14 hours a day (keeping in mind that that means one day you'll be there 18 hours, the next day 10), but let's work with 14 hours for this example. So you leave your Upper East Side apartment to catch the subway at about 8:30 (must be at desk by 9:30 latest, 9:15 is preferable, need coffee on the way in) for your ride to work, which can take anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes, depending on location and how well the subway is running. You might have to leave earlier if you have to drop off dry cleaning on the way to the subway, or pick up that prescription you had filled three days ago but never had time to pick up before the pharmacy closes at 9. You need to wake up probably at around 7:45 plus or minus ten minutes. You then need to walk to your office. You get to the office and find several urgent voice mail messages and e-mails waiting for you from the partner who gets in at 7 a.m. and is wondering where you are (not caring that you worked until 3 a.m. last night). You put out fires all morning, and then turn to working on the laundry list of deliverables you have to get to done today on your three different deals. Of course, a last minute conference call and two partners popping their heads into your office interrupt you, so before you know it, it's 5 p.m., you haven't eaten yet today, and you have a long night ahead of you to finish all of the things you wanted to work on the minute you got in in the morning but never got to do. The secretaries/assistants leave but the office is still buzzing. All of the attorneys are still there. The cleaning staff makes their way around the office, emptying your garbage pail and vacuuming your office floor. You work on. You order dinner now because you know it will take at least 45 minutes to an hour for you to get your food. You keep working. It's now 7 p.m., then 8 p.m. Some partners start to leave to get in their black towncars to take them home to the suburbs. Your friends call to see if you're going to make it out to the bar where they are all hanging out. "No, it doesn't look good tonight," you answer. Eventually they don't call as often because they have heard you say that too many times. At midnight, you give one of the three projects due today a final read before e-mailing it out to the partner. You send it out by 12:30, feeling absolutely wasted, and have to decide -- do I stay to finish up the other two projects that I missed the deadline on today or do I head home because I'm brain dead? If you head home, you've just finished your 14 hour work day but you will catch absolute hell in the morning (and if that partner is just angry enough, it will go into your review and could literally affect partnership decisions years later when you are up for partner) or you could stay until, let's say 4:30 a.m. or so (making for an 18 hour day), send out your work, and then wake up at 7:30 a.m. to start all over again. </p>
<p>If you think this is the life for you, starting Monday, make a mental check each time one of these times passes you by -- 7:30 a.m. wake, 8:30 a.m. subway, 9:15 a.m. desk, 12:30 a.m. home -- and see how long that really is, particularly if you are really working that whole time. Remember, we are talking about mental sharpness every moment -- no daydreaming, no fantasy baseball, no chatting to friends, no mid-day nap. I think you will be amazed at what a 14 hour day really feels like -- and that is hardly as bad as it gets. Now, if you can handle that, well, then this is the career for you! You will be paid well, you may see your name in the New York Law Journal or see your deal on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. Eight or nine years after starting out, you may even make partner, and then, though the hours don't diminish, the money can really roll in (though junior partners usually make little more than senior associates). </p>
<p>Like I said, you had better really get a kick out of the work. I do, and I know many others who feel the same way as I do, but don't spend $150,000 on law school only to absolutely hate the path that you chose for yourself. That's why my very best advice for anyone thinking about this path is to work for 2-3 years before law school so you can see what it is all about. Be a paralegal in a law firm (most of the big firms hire lots of students right out of undergrad to work as paralegals for a couple of years, knowing that they will eventually head to law school; in fact, some law firms have programs where they actively encourage their former paralegals to come back to the firm as attorneys after law school). Then, if you still want it, go for it!</p>
<p>I can certainly see how this life isn't right for everybody! Wow...it must be really easy to get burned out. But I know some lawyers who work for corporations that don't seem to put in such grueling hours. Could it be dependent on the type of company or the particular city in which the office is located?</p>
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<p>Remember, we are talking about mental sharpness every moment -- no daydreaming, no fantasy baseball, no chatting to friends, no mid-day nap.</p>
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<p>Not every big firm associate works this way, especially in secondary markets. There is plenty of snacking, email, admiration of the lake view, etc. going on at my firm. It may not add up to many billable increments when you subtract it at the end of the day, but it's there whenever you need it. I have no idea how you maintain your sanity otherwise; I certainly couldn't.</p>
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<p>Remember, we are talking about mental sharpness every moment -- no daydreaming, no fantasy baseball, no chatting to friends, no mid-day nap.</p>
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<p>NO CC?!?! HOW COULD ONE LIVE?!?!?!</p>
<p>:rolleyes:</p>
<p>Sallyawp, did you work in I-Banking before law school? If so, how would you compare the two lifestyles? Acceptance of women/minorities? Etc (ie. whatever you feel is relevant). Really curious.</p>
<p>is patent law as rough as corperate law??</p>
<p>Sally--What about if I want to work as an in-house attorney in a corporation, and not for a large firm? I hear the hours are usually 9-5, although the pay is slightly less.</p>
<p>But yeah it does sound rough, but regarding the points: 1) I don't really talk to my family anyway and I haven't seen them in 6 months; I'm not going home during the summer because I'm taking classes and working at university; during winter breakI'm going to Europe with my boyfriend, so I won't be home for Xmas at all, which means I don't care 2) my romantic relationship at the moment is long distance and my bf and I vacation every 6 months together, usually abroad, so we are used to being apart 3) health thing--that's worrying 4) I've changed schools 8 times in my life, so I keep changing "friends"...doesn't bother me 5) the fact that i have to get up so early would be slightly problematic for me though.</p>
<p>But yeah, don't care about family or same friends; Only care about boyfriend and health, and the early mornings. How's corporation work in comparison to big law firm work?</p>
<p>Sally...also, do you know the chances of getting hired by a large American company and getting sent abroad to work? I really want to work in Europe, or london to be precise, and I'd love to be "dispatched."</p>
<p>Is this possible with large corporations, or only with large firms?</p>
<p>"Sally--What about if I want to work as an in-house attorney in a corporation, and not for a large firm? I hear the hours are usually 9-5, although the pay is slightly less."</p>
<p>She spoke about this recently (shees, Sally is like the Oprah of CC!). Look up her previous posts. Long story in short: to go in house for a corporation you need previous experience (ie several years in corporate); unless you want to be doing the filing and data entry...something along those lines, but look up her post!</p>
<p>Cheers.</p>
<p>Thanks, Wildflower. Holy cow! I wish that I had all of the answers for everyone out there, but I just don't. Here is what I do know about going "in house" to work after working in a law firm as a corporate lawyer.</p>
<p>Generally, you cannot and should not go to work "in house" for a big (mid-sized or small either) corporation right out of law school. Sure, now someone is going to post about their older brother's best friend's girlfriend's sister who did it. Fine. It may happen ... but it is rare and, I would suggest, ill advised in the vast majority of circumstances. Generally, you have to work at least 5-6 years at a big law firm in order to get an in house job with a Fortune 500 company. Sometimes you may see opportunities for slightly more junior associates (usually 3-4 years of experience) usually at less well established companies, but there are three risks involved with taking those kinds of jobs. First, you don't know much yet after only 3 or so years of practicing at a law firm. No one in house has the time or the inclination to train you, so you'll be on your own. It can actually be very intimidating for people in that position (according to some friends and former colleagues who have made that leap). Often, success in that situation is difficult to attain, and you won't last long in house. Additionally, if your job is with a less established company ... well, let's just say that lay offs of attorneys and takeovers of those smaller companies resulting in layoffs are not unusual. Second, you will often be fifth person down the chain from the real decision makers -- trust me, not a position you want to be in as in house counsel. The rule that is often discussed is that where you come in as in house counsel is incredibly important because you won't move up quickiy in corporate life, especially as an in house lawyer. In house lawyers are seen as pure cost by the corporation. You directly bring in no revenue, and are, therefore, additional headcount and a hit to the bottom line. You need to come in with as good a title, salary and "band" or similar corporate designation as you can, because movement upward is difficult and infrequent for in house attorneys. Third, you will often be leapfrogged by attorneys who have the same number of years of experience as you, but who worked a couple more years in a law firm before making the leap in house. That is just demoralizing. Therefore, I would recommend waiting until you are more senior before going in house, if that is your intention.</p>
<p>Now, assuming that you wait until you have been practicing 5-6 years or more to go in house. What can you expect? First and foremost, you can expect a huge pay cut. A sixth year associate in a big NYC law firm is making a base salary of $230,000. That same associate in house will most likely make somewhere between $130,000 (less than a first year associate at the attorney's old law firm) and $165,000. A few associates with specific expertise that happens to be in demand at that time may be able to demand more (today, investment management (40 Act) experience is hot, two years ago it was bankruptcy), though it is impossible to predict in advance what areas will be hot when you are ready to make the leap. An attorney who goes in house at an investment bank may be paid more, but their work tends less towards the transactional and more towards handling everyday issues (does company policy allow the proposed move by the business folks, what are the anti-money laundering regulations that must be taken into consideration). I prefer the transactional, but I'm thrilled for those who want more of what I consider to be more mundane. The second big issue is that most in house jobs require a lot more hours than 9-5 these days. Gone are the days 15 years ago when working in house had the reputation of being a legal resting ground for not-so-talented lawyers with no future at their law firms (of course there were exceptions). These lawyers were paid poorly and they worked very regular hours. Today, with corporate compliance at the forefront of every board of directors' thoughts, for example, in house attorneys are being asked to do a lot more work with a lot fewer resources. It is expensive to hire a lawyer relative to hiring another middle manager, so companies are loathe to do so unless absolutely necessary. Keeping headcount low is a priority. It is not unheard of for in house attorneys to work as hard and as many hours as their contemporaries at law firms. I would say that the average in house lawyer in the NYC metropolitan area works from 8 a.m. until 6:30 p.m. , though many work longer hours either regularly or on occasion. Working weekends is far from unheard of. The nice thing is that there is generally a bit more regularity and predictability for in house lawyers. With commuting time, it's not such a short day. In house lawyers also travel to meet their clients (corporations are increasingly multinational), travel to work on deals and travel to mediate bad situations or to litigate them if the mediation attempt goes badly. There is definitely very interesting work to be had in house, but many in house lawyers do more mundane day-to-day things (like normal regulatory filings and negotiating terms and conditions to contracts for the sale of goods). The latter would bore me, but again, I'm thrilled for those who are happy doing that work. Finally, it is incredibly competitive to get in house jobs. You had better be well respected and have some great deal experience under your belt before you go on in house interviews. As I mentioned earlier, no one in house has the time or inclination to train you. In other words, you had better know your stuff and be able to prove it. Going in house is not often an option for the lawyer who has merely been muddling through until they were senior enough to try for an in house job. The in house jobs often go to the people who their firms would love to have as partners. </p>
<p>In house practice can really be interesting and exciting, especially if you are considered to be a integral part of the legal/business team, but you will certainly get paid less but have a bit more regularity and certainty to your working hours.</p>
<p>NeedAdvice,
Could you be sent abroad to work for a U.S. corporation as a lawyer? Typically, no, unless you are licensed to practice law in that foreign company. There can certainly be occasion for foreign travel if you are working for a multinational corporation, but that is about it, as far as I am aware. Most corporations have lawyers who live and work abroad, but they are almost without exception licensed to practice law in their respective home countries.</p>
<p>"Not every big firm associate works this way, especially in secondary markets. There is plenty of snacking, email, admiration of the lake view, etc. going on at my firm. It may not add up to many billable increments when you subtract it at the end of the day, but it's there whenever you need it. I have no idea how you maintain your sanity otherwise; I certainly couldn't."</p>
<p>Hanna, I'm sure that you're right about secondary markets. In NYC, though, it is survival of the fittest. If you can't live up to the demands of your job, there are twenty people lined up who would happily take any kind of abuse to have your desk. In my experience, though, there is something to be said for having to work with that kind of intensity. I literally did as many complex corporate deals in my first three years at my law firm as many corporate lawyers do in seven or eight years of practice outside of that environment. I was not unique at my law firm in that respect. I've worked on a lot of "first ever of its kind" deals -- the kind that companies are willing to pay the very top firms in NYC hundreds, if not thousands of dollars an hour, to handle. No, it's not for everyone. I have definitely found, though, that that experience has opened a ton of doors for me. Those open doors have led me to where I am now, and i couldn't be happier with the result. All I'm trying to say is that it can be done, and it can work out well, and there can be happiness in the practice of law -- even corporate law. </p>
<p>When you are consistently doing innovative and complex deals with the companies that appear on the cover of the Wall Street Journal every day, </p>
<p>I have certainly made a lot of contacts and Just today, I was away at a friend's vacation house for the day. A friend there, who is a second year associate at a large NYC firm,</p>