<p>Well... do they? Have most students at law school have atleast 3 years work experience.</p>
<p>I think most law school students go to law school straight out of undergrad.</p>
<p>A great deal of them do though its by no means standard. Yale law has a lot of straight out of undergrad people and doesn't seem to care as much about work experiene, wheras other schools will take work more into account. It can depend.</p>
<p>Insofar as working for the same firm goes, lots of people leave a firm only to come back again as an in-house lawyer (which pays about 400k in the large, super cities). A significant number of people at the top schools also clerk and do other things so its by no means given.</p>
<p>
[quote]
400k in the large, super cities
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Wow, that's a lot of money. But research from Abbott, Langer & Associates says that non-law firm lawyers get paid $317k in New York...although I guess that includes the ones who work for nonprofit and the government, so I guess that brings the avg down...</p>
<p>The pay is about 100-250k in smaller cities (though that can go higher in almost-big cities such as Chicago and Houston). LA, NYC, and Washington DC have the most big-ticket jobs by far. 400k for in-house lawyers at big firms is pretty standard in those cities.</p>
<p>$400K is well above average for an in-house legal position, I'm sorry to report, unless you're talking about attorneys who manage large departments. </p>
<p>Here's an excerpt from the 2005 Altman Weil Law Department Compensation Benchmarking Survey of U.S. corporate law departmen</p>
<p>"Base Salaries Rise
"Median salaries for senior positions in law departments increased this year, with Chief Legal Officers (CLOs) and Division General Counsel up between 4.1% and 5.4% respectively. Lawyers in more senior non-management positions also saw increases, with Senior Attorneys up 6.2% and Staff Attorney positions reporting an increase of 4.7%. Recent Graduate salaries were flat, with no reported change.</p>
<p>"The survey reports national median salary for Chief Legal Officers in 2005 at $280,000. The Senior Attorney position drew $129,000, while a new law school graduate earned a salary of $60,000.</p>
<p>"Bonuses Up Across the Board
"Nationally, in-house positions reported significant increases in median annual bonuses this year. CLOs reported the largest bonuses with 2005 increases of 39.5% over 2004 bonuses, continuing the trend of steadily increasing bonuses over the last several years. Other positions showed significant increases as well, with High Level Specialists showing a 52.3% bonus increase over 2004.</p>
<p>"The national median bonus for Chief Legal Officers was $150,000, according to the Survey. Division General Counsel (a mid-level management position) received $91,200 in bonus dollars, and Senior Attorneys with six or more years of experience took home a $27,100 bonus."</p>
<p>Sorry, folks. Some people do work at a law firm in a non-lawyer position (say, a paralegal), leave, go to law school and return. But nobody returns at a salary of $ 400K. They probably will get some credit for having worked as a paralegal, and a little higher pay than a first-year associate, and will be welcomed back, but not at that kind of salary. </p>
<p>Similarly, nobody starts as an in-house counsel in a company at that salary except possibly a partner in a law firm leaving to become general counsel of a larhge company, or a former politician doing the same.</p>
<p>What perception do Graduate schools have of undergraduates from U.K universities? Also, do American law firms look down upon U.K undergraduates who have also taken an American graduate degree? </p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>I was talking about the top firms in America's super cities. I believe I read that in an article somewhere that your salary on average is that high. THat seems to be supported by the previous poster's statement that the average salary of a lawyer in NY was 318k.</p>
<p>Yes, you won't make nearly as much in other cities and other areas, and hence there is a huge earnings differential between people from top law schools and those from lower ranked ones in general and on average. In-house counsel for say a Manhattan firm I am pretty sure makes 400k, but getting a job with them in the first place, leaving and coming back from a top law school is probably not that common.</p>
<p>So if I was a U.K applicant - without experience of jobs, would I be successful in any case?</p>
<p>Most law students have not previously worked at law firms. Some obviously have, but I very much doubt that they're in the majority. It's certainly not a prerequisite. </p>
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hey probably will get some credit for having worked as a paralegal, and a little higher pay than a first-year associate, and will be welcomed back, but not at that kind of salary.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I've never heard of anybody coming in at a salary above a first-year associate's because they had been a paralegal. It's also not invariably the case that they'll "welcome" you back if you went to a crappy law school and finished in the bottom of your class.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In-house counsel for say a Manhattan firm I am pretty sure makes 400k, but getting a job with them in the first place, leaving and coming back from a top law school is probably not that common.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Are you talking about lawyers who work for firms, or the ones who work for companies (in the general counsel's office)? You can't be "in-house" at a law firm.</p>
<p>So if I was a U.K applicant - without experience of jobs, would I be successful in any case?</p>
<p>I thought it's more common now for students at top law schools to have some work experience prior to applying for and attending law school. Does anyone have any statistics on this?</p>
<p>Yes, all associates at Wachtell took several
years working - prior to grad school. What U.S firms take U.K law grads?</p>
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Yes, all associates at Wachtell took several
years working - prior to grad school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, they didn't. This isn't even close to true.</p>
<p>I don't think any firm is going to hire a UK law grad who can't practice in the US, which I think would require an LLM.</p>
<p>I am confused by your questions. What the heck is an "ex-job"? </p>
<p>Some background I hope may help you: </p>
<p>Getting admitted to a US law school does NOT mean you will be allowed to stay after you finish and work in the US. Many people actually end up doing this, but you can NOT count on it. There are many people who found out the hard way that this was not as easy as they had assumed. Generally, whether you take the JD or LLM route, your odds of getting a job in the US will depend on the state of the US economy at the time you are applying for law firm positions, any extra skills you bring to the table, and your grades. If you are a <em>star</em> there's a better chance that a US firm will be willing to sponsor you FOR IMMIGRATION PURPOSES. That's NOT the same as paying your way through a US law school. Moreover, they will USUALLY only commit to sponsoring you shortly before you finish the degree. They are NOT going to say "If you come to the US and get a LLM we shall guarantee you a job and sponsor you for immigration purposes when you graduate. " I mean there may be an exception if you can prove you'd bring in $3-4 million in fees, but I'm talking about the usual case. </p>
<p>The US has 50 states, plus the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico and some territories. Ours is a federal system. The rules for being admitted to the bar vary from state to state. In some states, e.g., New York, it is relatively easy for foreign trained attorneys to get admitted. In others, it's virtually impossible. You should check the rules of the particular state or states where you think you'd like to practice. Here is the link to a website that explains the rules for foreign attorneys trained in common law nations who want to be admitted to practice in New York. <a href="http://www.nybarexam.org/foreign.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.nybarexam.org/foreign.htm</a>
It is my understanding that New York is the most liberal US state in terms of its requirements. In some states, ONLY grads of ABA-accredited law schools can take the exam. </p>
<p>You should check the web pages of US law schools with LLM programs. I just looked on UVa's and there was some information that may be helpful. </p>
<p>I know several British attorneys who worked this out, but they fall into certain categories: (1) they got a legal degree in the US, which they paid for themselves, did well in the program, had special skills and got a US firm to sponsor them for immigration purposes after they completed their degree, (2) more commonly, they went through all their legal training in the UK, got sponsored for immigration purposes by a US firm, and then, while working for a US firm, studied for the bar exam, took it and passed --I'm just talking about a prep course,not a degree granting program, (3) they got jobs working for UK firms having offices in the US , (4) they worked for US firms in the UK and then got assigned to the US office, generally for a fixed period of years, (5) they got some other type of job in the US which gave them a visa to be here legally and went to law school at night, and (6) they married US citizens or green card holders and thus didn't need employer sponsorship to stay here. I'm not saying these are the only paths; I'm just saying these are the ways attorneys I know did it. </p>
<p>One of the MANY problems you will have is that law school is expensive. As a non-US citizen, non-green card (permanent residency certificate for aliens) holder, you are NOT eligible for federal student loans. The cost of TUITION alone at one of the top law schools is currently about $38,000 per year. Private bank loans are available, but the interest rates are higher and only a limited number of banks will loan money to a foreign student without a US citizen or green-card holder as a co-signer. (It is somewhat easier to get such loans if you are in the US working in another industry. )Count on at least another $15,000 a year for living expenses. </p>
<p>I suspect that some of the very top law schools are already out of reach for you with that 2:1. But a lot is going to depend on your LSAT if you go for a JD and your record and prior experience if you go for a LLM. But NOTE: the fact that you get admitted into a LLM if you have a foreign BA in law does NOT mean that you'll meet the standards for being admitted to the bar in ALL US states. </p>
<p>Politics play an enormous role in this. Right now, it's really easy for Aussie attorneys to get permission to come to the US to work because of legislation the Bush administration got through based on some co-operation from the Austrailian government in some US foreign policy initiatives. Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but your posts "sound" as if you may not be a UK citizen. Keep in mind that ONE factor that will impact your odds of coming to the US for law school and of being permitted to stay here to work is your country of citizenship. So, if you don't have a UK passport, MAKE sure that in asking any advice, you make that clear. You will need a student visa to study in the US and while getting such a visa is fairly easy for UK citizens, it's not so easy for citizens of some other countries. (My hunch is that a UK citizen will have better odds than a citizen of Iran at the moment, even if the Iranian has a UK degree.)</p>
<p>Please note that I do not claim to be an expert and this is not legal advice.</p>
<p>Half way through creating the opus above, I discovered the following webpage at UVa which explains better than I did that getting a LLM in the US doesn't mean a foreign citizen can stay here and work. It may be helpful. </p>
<p>After postgrad - I do wish to persue the NY bar exam.</p>
<p>Again, you need to understand that even passing the NY bar does NOT guarantee you will be permitted to stay in the US.</p>
<p>Duh.</p>
<p>Apparently you need to have a job offer BEFORE you graduate, so you can get the H1B visa and stuff. Is it possible to offer to hire an attorney at YOUR EXPENSE to handle all the paperwork if they don't offer to sponsor you? I mean that arrangement entails no paperwork on their part.</p>