Some data on salaries for law school graduates

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>These are some exerpts from an article in the National Law Journal today:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Not-So-Fast-Money: Wannabes Better Not Count on $160,000</p>

<p>By Leigh Jones

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Despite news of record-breaking employment figures for law school graduates and first-year salaries of $160,000 at many top law firms, a significant contingent of job seekers — including those with strong credentials — are living a much different story after graduation. </p>

<p>By accounts from employment trackers, news reports and some law schools themselves, starting a lucrative career as a lawyer these days is easier than ever. Many big law firms are doling out first-year salaries that exceed those paid to seasoned federal judges, and they are bestowing year-end bonuses that rival starting pay for many entry-level professional positions. </p>

<p>But the eye-popping salaries are the reality for a small fraction of law school graduates, and all those stories of big money may be creating unrealistic hopes for the vast majority of law school students. Contributing to the situation is the effort by law schools to portray their employment numbers as robustly as possible to boost their ranking scores.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
A big challenge — and responsibility — for law schools is to dispel the notion that six-figure salaries at megafirms are the norm, she said. "They perceive those jobs as having high status and high pay and do not understand what they entail."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
According to the latest information from NALP, the Washington-based nonprofit group that tracks legal employment, 90.7% of last year's law school graduates were employed nine months after graduation, topping 90% for the first time since 2000. The total number of graduates for whom employment status was known equaled 40,186.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Just to note, that also means that almost 10% of law schools graduates were not employed at all nine months after graduation. </p>

<p>
[quote]
From that number 55.8% — or 22,424 — took jobs in private practice. NALP estimates that about 37% of graduates who go into private practice end up working for firms with 101 attorneys or more. Importantly, the vast majority of the firms paying first-year associates the much-publicized $160,000 have more than 500 attorneys. </p>

<p>The result is that about 80% of law graduates are not working in law firms with more than 101 attorneys, and, consequently, are making far less than the amounts grabbing all the attention.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
"I'm kind of stuck," said a 27-year-old lawyer from Ohio State University Michael E. Moritz College of Law who moved to Chicago after she graduated last year. She did not want to reveal her identity out of a concern that doing so would hinder her job search. </p>

<p>Currently working for an in-house department at a large insurance company in Chicago, she graduated in the top third of her class, was a member of law review and participated in the school's moot court competition. She has $70,000 in student loan debt, she said, and makes about $50,000 annually. </p>

<p>She sent out more than 100 résumés and letters before and after she graduated, she said. "I could get in the door; I just couldn't land the job." </p>

<p>She said that many of her friends from law school are working on a contract basis for law firms.</p>

<p>"A lot of people are making $30,000." </p>

<p>She is looking for another job and is considering nonlawyer positions.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
"I absolutely think their expectations are inflated," said James Leipold, executive director of NALP.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
But job hunters should view those figures with caution, Leipold said. First, the majority of law school graduates obtain jobs at firms with 10 attorneys or fewer, he said. In addition, location makes a big difference in salaries. Most law school graduates across the country who take jobs in private practice can expect to make between $40,000 and $45,000 their first year, Leipold said.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Leipold said he is confident that NALP's numbers are accurate.

[/quote]
</p>

2

<p>I think would make a big difference if you came out of Yale Law than Ohio Law.</p>

3

<p>But only a small few are going to get into a T14 school.</p>

4

<p>"I'm kind of stuck," said a 27-year-old lawyer from Ohio State University Michael E. Moritz College of Law who moved to Chicago after she graduated last year. She did not want to reveal her identity out of a concern that doing so would hinder her job search. </p>

<p>Currently working for an in-house department at a large insurance company in Chicago, she graduated in the top third of her class, was a member of law review and participated in the school's moot court competition. She has $70,000 in student loan debt, she said, and makes about $50,000 annually."</p>

<p>Was she too busy to read the stats on her school before deciding to attend? The published private sector 25-75th percentile starting salary for that school is 50-90k. That means 25% make less than 50k!</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
Was she too busy to read the stats on her school before deciding to attend? The published private sector 25-75th percentile starting salary for that school is 50-90k. That means 25% make less than 50k!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is why I encourage everyone who asks for advice to look at schools' employment data very carefully before deciding to attend. Frankly, some discussion boards tend to give an overly optimistic view of employment prospects at low-ranked schools. If you're going to OSU with the expectation that you'll land a six-figure job, you've made a serious mistake.</p>

6

<p>What really surprises me is that we may not be talking about T14 here, but OSU is a good law school, ranked right there with William and Mary and not far from Boston College or even Boston University. With this in mind, for someone that does hope/expect to make 6 figures or close in their first year, is it basically pointless to go to a law school outside of the T14 (which would include UT, WashU, Emory, etc.)?</p>

7

<p>what if you're an average student at a lower t-14 (e.g. duke, georgetown, etc.) or at a school just outside the t-14 (e.g. ucla and usc)? what's a typical private practice salary range for those type of students? will there be any $125K+ biglaw jobs available for them, or are those mostly for students in the upper t-14 and top of the class at the lower t-14? </p>

<p>on a related note, everytime i talk to law students and tell them i'm considering between law and business (w/o mentioning salary), they all say "dont do law" and "the MBA is a better long-term investment." how true is that statement?</p>

8

<p>It would be interesting to see how many similar cases exist among T14 grads...</p>

9

<p>As someone who has grown up around the law (father is an attorney and mother is a paralegal), I have always been taken aback by the seemingly inflated income numbers from USNWR. I live in a mid-size legal market (300,000-400,000 people), and the starting salaries for new associates is 50,000 (the "big" firm I work at starts associates just over 60,000, but I am told that is 10k above the rest of the pack). That's the same salary I expect when I enter the legal market. Granted, I have always understood that there are biglaw jobs out there in large legal markets that pay 100k+ to new associates but those have always been viewed as the unattractive exception-- not the rule. I suppose I'm just lucky to have such low expectations.</p>

10

<p>I am of the opinion that 60k, or so, is a strong salary for a 25 year old. I question going deeply into debt to start at that kind of salary, but it is still much more that most 25 year olds will make. In many “professions” it can take ten years to get to 60K.</p>

11

<p>The OSU graduate said she could get in the door but couldn't land the job. Her rank and making law review - assuming it was the main law review for the school - were likely good enough to get her into excellent firms local to OSU. For some reason, this didn't happen and it may have had to do with her interviewing skills or many other reasons. The warning is still a good one, but not with regard to the law school she chose. As many have said on this board before, if you are going to law school only because you want to land a job that pays six figures, then just don't do it. There are so many things that have to fall into place for that to happen. Getting into a top 10 school doesn't guarantee it, but helps. Not getting into a T14 doesn't shut the door, but may limit your choices to more regional firms and require top grades and law review. No one can guarantee how they will do in law school. I had friends who worked so much harder than I did, and just could never get the grades that I did. I almost felt guilty; they probably wanted to strangle me. There is little time to "settle in" in law school. The first year classes are core and are graded with one exam and that grading can seem almost random. I found myself looking around at my fellow students trying to predict who would do well and who wouldn't. Invariably, one of the apparent know it alls in class would get a C and an apparent slacker on the back row would get an A. Landing the job is just the beginning. There may be brutal hours, menial tasks, and only a small chance of long term opportunity with that firm. I am not saying that is always the case by any means, but it is a reality that many do not consider. A small percentage land that biglaw job, many of those are not there after 5-6 years and a small percentage of those remaining will make partner, and then there is the challenge of maintaining your partnership. Again, do not go to law school just for the money. The numbers are just not with you.</p>

12

<p>CareerChange, I absolutely agree. 60k for someone in their mid-twenties is a very strong salary.</p>

13

<p>A 60K salary with 100K+ in debt? There are severe opportunity cost issues.</p>

14

<p>Go to a state school and grab a job at a local law firm-- you avoid the 100K in debt and still pull down a solid salary. I don't understand why the law attracts gunners, but it definitely does.</p>

15

<p>I have to agree with Mr. Payne here. The monthly debt service costs associated with the amount of student loans that many law students incur is hardly a workable option. </p>

<p>Even attending a state law school is not necessarily a bargain basement option. In state tuition (and these are all in state costs for tuition alone (not including room, board, books, travel, phone, etc.)) is really not such a great bargain when one must take out loans to cover their costs:</p>

<p>SUNY Buffalo Law - $12,170
UVA Law - $33,500
U Michigan Law - $17,656
U of Iowa Law - $15,270
U of Minnesota Law - $19,000
U of Cal Berkeley Law - $26,893.50 ($25,458 at Davis)
U of New Mexico Law - $10,561
U of Texas Law - $20,632
U of Wyoming Law - $8,491
U of Alabama Law - $11,190</p>

<p>The lowest total estimated cost of attendance (including books, housing, food, etc.) that I found at any of these schools was approximately $25,000 per year (except for Wyoming, which was approximately $22,000 per year, so if you are a Wyoming resident, you may save a few thousand dollars off of average tuition) and the highest was over $50,000 per year. Since most financial aid at law schools comes in the form of loans and not grants, even a student attending a state law school would likely have some hefty student loans to pay off.</p>

<p>I just don't think that there are any huge bargains in law school tuition, unless you are one of the lucky very few people who receives some kind of partial or full tuition scholarship. Unfortunately, though, no one can really count on receiving such a scholarship since there are so few of them out there.</p>

16

<p>This is a common case of where common sense and a little work can save your ass. First, like someone noted, the published salary for ohio was available and this girl should have known what she was getting into. Also, though ohio may not be a <em>bad</em> school it certainly isn't that great. Most schools outside, say, the top 18, are more regionally oriented. Yes, it's not to far away from BC, but BC is in boston, a major legal market....where no such market exists in ohio. One has to decide whether they want to go into LS. If you have the stats to get into a T10, T14, or T20 school then with hard work you should be able to get a biglaw job. It may not be in you're chosen city, but the majority (read: over 50%...not 90%) of law students in schools in the top 20 can get these jobs. However once you leave the top 20, in most schools, being around the median isn't going to cut it. People sit here and whine like we should feel sorry for this girl, but to be honest she should have known what she was getting into. If you wanna go into $100,000 of debt and attend some crappy LS then go ahead, just know that you're gonna have to finish top 5/10% if you want a chance at biglaw...and even though you may think you can hack it you're going into a school where everyone else has the same idea/goal.</p>

17

<p>i understand what this person is saying..dont take it lightly. i've heard stories like this before. People get the misconception that being a lawyer clearly will get them a six-figure salary.Thats not the case. If your not going to Harvard, Yale or Stanford for law school, theres a really good chance you might a rough time & realistically only so many people can say they went to Harvard or Yale for law. In addition, getting into a top-notch school still has no guarantees b/c law is such a competitive field esp. in NY. I know a U.Chicago law graduate who makes a mere 45,000 a year. It happens and potential law students should be wary of it. esp those in NY where it is insanely competitive. My history teacher a retired lawyer ( went to NYU law school) quit law to become a teacher b/c he said the competition got way too overbearing ( other lawyers at his firm attempted to get him fired & other crazy shenanigans to get ahead). He also attested that when hiring the firm would receive over 400 resumes glance at them for a second before saying " nope".
Law is a great field just realize that unless your on top of your game & i mean really on top of your game ( Harvard, Yale, etc.), you may not land that six-figure job of your dreams. There is no guarantee. The only job I believe can really give you guarantees is medicine. Why beacuse there are always sick people & most hospitals are understaffed.If you dont believe me check Forbes best jobs ( in terms of slalry) the first half of that list is filled with health professions (anesthesiologist( 334,000/yr), heart surgeon, etc.)</p>

18

<p>
[quote]
i understand what this person is saying..dont take it lightly. i've heard stories like this before. People get the misconception that being a lawyer clearly will get them a six-figure salary.Thats not the case. If your not going to Harvard, Yale or Stanford for law school, theres a really good chance you might a rough time & realistically only so many people can say they went to Harvard or Yale for law. In addition, getting into a top-notch school still has no guarantees b/c law is such a competitive field esp. in NY. I know a U.Chicago law graduate who makes a mere 45,000 a year. It happens and potential law students should be wary of it. esp those in NY where it is insanely competitive. My history teacher a retired lawyer ( went to NYU law school) quit law to become a teacher b/c he said the competition got way too overbearing ( other lawyers at his firm attempted to get him fired & other crazy shenanigans to get ahead). He also attested that when hiring the firm would receive over 400 resumes glance at them for a second before saying " nope".
Law is a great field just realize that unless your on top of your game & i mean really on top of your game ( Harvard, Yale, etc.), you may not land that six-figure job of your dreams. There is no guarantee. The only job I believe can really give you guarantees is medicine. Why beacuse there are always sick people & most hospitals are understaffed.If you dont believe me check Forbes best jobs ( in terms of slalry) the first half of that list is filled with health professions (anesthesiologist( 334,000/yr), heart surgeon, etc.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is false. While you may not be guaranteed biglaw at all schools, anything in the top 6 will do it if you can interview somewhat well or don't finish in the bottom 10%. Also, NYC is the EASIEST legal market to get into. Not only does every firm in the world have an office there but the associates work insane hours which results in a very low turnover from year to year, therefore opening up more positions for graduating 3L's.</p>

19

<p>Medicine certainly doesn't guarantee a great salary either. Sure, specialists make big bucks, but things are not so sunny for the average family physician in a small practice. There are a lot of frustrated doctors out there. (And imagine their debt!)</p>

20

<p>If you're thinking of the same Best Jobs list I'm thinking of, it's an absurd list. It fails to include bonuses -- hence the complete barrenness of Wall Street jobs on there -- compensate for hours worked, or adjust for the time-value of money.</p>

<p>Does anybody seriously think that investment bankers, consultants, hedge fund managers, and venture capitalists aren't anywhere on the list of most lucrative professions?</p>