To keep it to sports which probably have the same # of admits, say for instance cross country vs wrestling. Not to cast generalizations (as i know many incredibly smart wrestlers), but I will :). In general I would expect x-country runners - as a group - to have higher SATs/grades. And maybe as it relates to larger admitted helmet sports, lax vs football. Lax is certainly growing by leaps and bounds, but still tends to have a preppy sterotype. Can dispute the assumptions all day, but Wrestling/football academic performance probably < x-country/lax, so wondering if that latter group faces higher standards
So i guess the question is - would a cross country runner require better academic stats than a wrestler, assuming both are equally desired by their respective coach?
Either everyone on this board is lying about what their kids were told they needed for scores, or wrestling is lower in NESCAC and Ivy than the average sport. Football has it’s own separate system, but generally it is lower as well. I think Lax is actually lower than you would think, not because of need but because it is a sport the administrations tend to value. I don’t know anything specifically about X-country, but I would assume your assumptions are correct.
If the sport is wrestling, I can probably give you more information if you are interested.
Each coach get a certain number of slots or tips so if they have a lot, like football, I think the averages might be a little lower. If a team only has a few slots then the coach has to make up his team from those who got into the school on academics. Smaller teams, like golf or tennis, might be entirely recruited if the coach gets 2-3 slots per year and all the recruits stay with the team for 4 years.
But that’s for admissions. Most sports teams have higher GPAs that the general school population.
My son was recruited for T&F recently and was told they look for at least 32 ACT, all A and A- grades for the most part, and they wanted a certain level of AP classes. The coach had a preread done the first week in July and admissions said everything looked OK. Coach said son would get a slot if he applied ED. He did that, and got accepted.
I think at almost all schools and all sports where you are on the coach’s list matters too. We started talking before S had scores, so we may have gotten more info than if we had just walked in and said “Is a 30 on the ACT ok?”
Most coaches gave a range. Something along the lines of “26 for a freshman varsity starter who could eventually All American to 34 if you are a practice room guy we are hoping may develop down the road.” The ranges varied a bit, and some coaches were more explicit than others. But when I restated it this way to them they pretty much all said I had the general concept right. This was at several elite schools (Ivies, NESCAC and academic equivalent). I’m sure most of them had an average they had to hit, and if you are an impact player you can bring it down a bit (with some floor that admissions won’t let them ignore). If you are not an impact player then you probably need to be able to bring up the average.
As S developed athletically, and did not do well on his first ACT test, the floor we were given at a few schools magically dropped a couple points. They did all still want him to continue testing to bring it up if possible. I think he had a few more points in him if he tried, but after a couple of coaches at schools he loved told him his ACT was fine, he stopped trying. He did improve 1 point at least the second try.
thx dadof4 - sport is wrestling and any info/guidance would be appreciated. To make it less theoretical, would a 1400 SAT cut the mustard at NESCAC wrestling schools (assuming talent level somewhere btw “frosh varsity starter” and “practice room guy”)
@stellastella I just sent you a pm. I don’t know if you can access it though with just 5 posts. If you can, just send me a reply so I know you are getting it. Or if you can read it but can’t reply let me know here. Thanks.
at williams team sport, assistant coach said even if someone is 34+ they best get coaches support in admissions. I think athletes above the average can be near free admits for the coaches… and they are happy not to risk losing even a practice player through admissions.
and I concur with @dadof4kids you can ask a coach and they will give you a solid answer like “the roster ranges from 29-36ACT” with better players requiring a lower score (this was girls team sport). Once further along with scores in hand and at least junior, player can ask the coach with my scores and your level of support how many people did not get in, and you should hope for an answer of zero, (Or converse 100% did get in) regardless of sport.
My D is not a wrestler, but when she submitted her good grades and ACT for a pre-admission read, one of these schools and the coach commented, “I have never had someone apply who didn’t have all A’s.” haha. D did not end up applying to that school but another academically equal school. And got in. What a world we live in.
In the NESCAC, because of the tip and slot system (or bands, or whatever you prefer to call it), there is variation between schools, sports, athletic ability and genders as to what grades/board scores are expected. I strongly suspect that there is more room to maneuver, for example, for ice hockey than for x-country, particularly at the NESCAC schools that emphasize ice hockey. I know a girl who was flat out told she needed two full points higher on her ACT than a boy who was admitted a few years earlier for the same sport. The standards for admissions among the various NESCACs also vary considerably. Adding to the equation is the increasing number of NESCACs that are now test optional.
As you suggest, we can debate this all day, but in the final analysis, the issue is where your kid fits into a specific school’s needs. I highly recommend unofficial meetings with the coaches at NESCAC schools of interest (armed with a copy of an unofficial transcript). They will give a fairly accurate idea of what would be needed in a specific way for your kid. If your kid is a top recruit, the coach has more lee-way and will explain where your kid stands in the coach’s experience. Of course, this should be confirmed through a pre-read with admissions.
Good summary, @gointhruaphase The only thing I will add is that at least some of the test optional schools aren’t test optional for recruited athletes. My D, a recruited athlete who will be attending a TO Nescac in the fall, had to submit an unofficial score for pre-reads, and an official test score with the ED application.
These schools have teams, but they are not relying on them to get ad revenue, etc. Also, unlike big D1 athletic programs, they do not have staff around whose job is supporting these kids academically on the way to a bowl game.
What that means, in a real sense, is that any applicant needs to demonstrate an ability to handle the academics and thrive as a student as well as an athlete.
And while the system does allow coaches to select a part of every incoming class, provided that the applicants have cleared their bar, the admissions team is ultimately responsible to the school for creating a class that is what the institution wanted.
This is a long way of saying that it really depends on the sport, the school, and the kid but it’s highly unlikely that any school will go way outside the academic norms for any athlete.
This. Very much this. I understand (and remember) the desire to try and find some hard and fast data points to hold onto during the nebulous process that is recruiting at high academic schools. Unfortunately, except for some really broad strokes, there simply are none. So much depends on a particular recruit’s desirability in that sport to that school in that cycle. You need to always remember that a recruit’s athletic and academic chops are not the only factors here. The state of the school’s roster plays a huge role as well. For example, a kid who is a PA state champ at 185 might be very desirable to a particular school where the three year conference champ at 184 just graduated and all that is left in the room are practice guys. At that school’s rival, that same recruit might be far less desirable because the coach has a very good sophomore and junior at 184 already. At one school, a 3.5 and a 30 ACT (or whatever) may be fine. At the other, it might not get it done.
It is such a fluid situation that the only way you can get a realistic idea of the bench marks your son needs to hit is to have specific conversations with the coaches from the schools recruiting him. In my experience, coaches are not at all reticent to provide specific information to a recruit if they are asked the right questions in a non confrontational manner. If there is one piece of advice I think all of us who have been through the process could give, it would be that. Do not be afraid to ask specific and fair questions and listen to the answers.
Student profiles* with associated college acceptances in U.S. News can offer insight, though they may challenge preconceptions. For example, a 3.3 (UW) GPA (SAT: 1120) has been shown to be sufficient for a football recruit at Bowdoin.
*The samples may be small, but the documentation can be presumed to be legitimate.
That particular profile appeared in U.S. News’ “Best Colleges 2015” guidebook, @wisteria100. That aside for a moment, the value of the profiles originates from their context – typically eight students from a single high school with GPAs, scores and ECs included, along with the results of their college applications.
The 3.3 UW GPA and 1120 SAT for Bowdoin sound quite low even for a football recruit. From my experience, my son was above that and was a fairly strong Bowdoin football recruit but was still a stretch to get thru Admissions even with the coaches support and a slot. We were told informally early on by a coach that they had heard 1150 was the very bottom but they were not supposed to say that. Obviously a school like Bowdoin also factors in the strength of classes taken, APs, etc… I also know that it is a combo of grades and athletic ability and Bowdoin is struggling a bit for football.