<p>Source ?</p>
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<p>Yeah, but what happens to all those small LS students who didn’t graduate at the top of their class? Let’s face it - by definition - most people will not graduate at the top of their class.</p>
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<p>Simply to stop at Dad:
- How old is your Dad? More importantly, how long ago did he graduate from grad school?
- You do realize you’re looking at a single person case.
Person X graduated from Y Law School.
Person X is successful.
Therefore Y Law School is worth it to go to and will help you achieve success.
See the fallacy in the logic? </p>
<p>Later in the statement:
3) “HYPS law stuents” -> Sorry if this is being nit-picky, but I didn’t know Princeton had a law school.
4) “graduated middle of the role… for local kids who graduated top of their class”
You do realize that since some of the top schools like Yale and Harvard (someone correct me on this if I’m wrong but I remember seeing it somewhere on this site) will not tell you if you’re bottom of the class, and basically after the top 40 or so % will just not rank (again, some clarification here would be nice), that “middle of the road” could mean last, but “top of their class” little means top 1-2 people. Even a student GOT INTO HYS, I doubt he could GUARANTEE graduating in the top TWO people at a local law school. </p>
<p>I’m not in law school, but I assume the simple job process itself is very strenuous, and that when you have a little bit of a safety net (which the T14 provides) you’re able to devote a little more time to the job process.</p>
<p>Dad - mid 40’s
he did go to a T14, and got job offers from the “big” firms everywhere, but that isnt my point…my point was not “so you get into Stanford law and some local law school, you should go to the local school because you’ll be more successfull.” The reality is (by statistics) that someone who goes to Stanford or Yale or Harvard is more likely to get great job offers. However, I have to disagree with the OP when he says that it isnt worth being a lawyer, or attending law school if you dont get accepted to T14. I just wanted to let people out there who didnt get into T14 know that there are tons of opportunities out there for them as well, as long as they do well at their school. My dad’s law firm does accept HYS(sorry for adding P, I’m used to chance threads, “chance me for HYPS + others”), and yes he is an isolated case, but I just wanted to use them to illustrate my point. On the subject of “middle of the road”, law firms WILL accept candidates who made law review, and graduated with high honors from a local school, as long as the interview goes well, over a HYS candidate who did not.</p>
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<p>Sure, but the vast majority of students are not at the very top of their class. And small, local firms don’t tend to pay a whole lot, so they’re not necessarily a great deal for somebody with six-figure debt. That’s why looking at unemployment for JDs is also misleading; you have to consider underemployment as well.</p>
<p>I’m not talking about local law firms, I’m telling you, BIG firms will hire local kids. My father’s firm pays the 1st year associates the going rate, and they take so many X and Y university students (local, decent, but definetely not T14, not even top 100) and pay them as well as they pay Harvard Law students. And while this is just one firm, and most likely doesnt acurately represent every single law firm in the country, it is one of the top 15 largest firms in the world, and very prestigious. About firms not paying well, WHO ARE YOU KIDDING? first year straigt out of law school(yes you will have a 6 figure debt) you will make 125-160k. That is not a small amount of money.</p>
<p>Please link to any one of the 15 largest law firms in the world that hires “so many” students from schools ranked outside the top 100. None of them do.</p>
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<p>According to the BLS, attorneys across all experience levels made a median salary of $102k a year. Clearly that means that most new lawyers fresh out of law school make nowhere near $125-160k.</p>
<p>Why don’t we just look at the salary/employment stats of some “local, decent, but definetely not T14, not even top 100” schools?</p>
<p>[Southwestern</a> Law School — Salary & Employment Statistics](<a href=“http://www.swlaw.edu/studentservices/careerservices/salary_employment_stats]Southwestern”>http://www.swlaw.edu/studentservices/careerservices/salary_employment_stats)
[Employment</a> Statistics | Current Students | Careers | School of Law | Pepperdine University](<a href=“http://law.pepperdine.edu/careers/current-students/employment-stats.htm]Employment”>http://law.pepperdine.edu/careers/current-students/employment-stats.htm) </p>
<p>Actually, Pepperdine is in the top-100; but this would only strengthen the following point:</p>
<p>Most firms don’t really pay starting salary of 125-160K to 1st-year associates.</p>
<p>^By the way, both are in Los Angeles. Considering locality, salaries would be less in just about anywhere else.</p>
<p>Sam – you’re even more right than that page would imply. Notice that 4.75% in judicial clerkships are less than the 5 minimum students to report a salary. So we know that there are about 100 people who responded to the survey, out of a class size of ~250. So about 60% of the class isn’t responding to the survey – and I’m guessing that the kids who got lucrative private sector jobs are more likely to respond.</p>
<p>Look, you all are taking my post the completely wrong way…I’m not saying that the average student at a local college will make huge money at a huge firm, I am saying that the top students have a good chance. Look, all I know is that people at my father’s law firm get hired out of local colleges…they weren’t the average joe, they were the top of the top. Look I’m not arguing with the statistics, I’m arguing with the OP, with the statement that you shouldn’t be a lawyer if you cant get into T14. It is possible to be successful from a local college. Now it is true that if you go to a local college in Iowa, you will not be accepted into a big NY firm no matter how well you do there, you might be hired at an Iowa firm but not NY…rather if you go to a local NY LS, there is a chance that you could be hired at a big NY firm, if you graduate top of the top. At the statement that by the numbers, most people don’t graduate top of the top, yes I agree with that. What I don’t agree with is telling people not to try for the top, why not make the most of EVERY opportunity you are presented with? If you can’t get into a T14, work you’re butt off somewhere else. This argument is like saying that you can’t get into an Ivy for graduate work if you didn’t go to an Ivy for undergrad…and everyone know’s that isn’t true.</p>
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<p>Problem #1: It’s not just about hard work. In many ways, law school ranking is closer to a lottery than a test of will, especially from the decision-point of a prospective 1L.</p>
<p>Problem #2: The odds are often stacked against you, since some of your classmates will be T14 material who either had a scholarship or had to stay close to home.</p>
<p>Problem #3: Your “ticket” to this lottery will cost you three years of your life and $150,000.</p>
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<p>Because the vast majority of them won’t be in the top of their class, and advising someone to take on huge amounts of debt justifiable only by very unrealistic expectations is cruel.</p>
<p>What I can agree with is, for those people who can’t get into a T14, to seriously consider attending a part-time program. Sure, it will take longer, but at least you’ll be (presumably) working and hence maintaining your debt at a manageable level. Moreover, you may find a job that provides some continuing education tuition support, hence defraying your costs even further.</p>
<p>Very few entry-level jobs provide enough income to allow a part-time law student pay more than a little bit of their tuition.</p>
<p>So? At least you’re (hopefully) covering your living costs. That’s better than nothing.</p>
<p>Will probably get shouted at for this:</p>
<p>Unless you have a significant scholarship (or have access to a great LRAP program, should your aspirations lie more in Public Interest/Government work), in my opinion, law school just isn’t worth it unless you’re attending a T6 or higher. From my friends at the lower T14, I’m gathering that a good half (or more) of those looking for BigLaw struck out this year. One can no longer head into a T14 school with the expectation that one will earn 160k from the get-go. This year, it seemed that the sort of unofficial cut-off was around the top third for the lower T14, and maybe top 40% for CNN, and top-half for HYS. What’s worse is that plenty of people well above those “cut-offs” also struck out (frankly, I’m shocked at the number of 3.8s at my school who simply don’t have offers). Given how tough 1L is, I just don’t think one should predict that they’ll get the rank necessary for a BigLaw job.</p>
<p>I also think, though, that students entering/aspiring for/studying in T14 schools are in for a major expectation realignment. Students at these schools are wayyyy too entitled, thinking that they some how deserve the 160k just because they attend these schools. What’s worse is that they have distorted expectations about getting the job (they thought they only needed a pulse), and about the actual requirements of the job (most don’t realize that big firms are up-and-out places, where the few who survive are those who bill 2000+ hrs). It’s now a big firm’s market, and big firms are looking for top schools, great grades, and great personalities. They’re assessing your ability to build a book of clients. They’re anticipating little to no voluntary attrition (because of the economy), so they want to make sure you know what you’re getting into (as much as a law student can know, which is surprisingly a lot).</p>
<p>Now I’m not saying that a law degree is not intrinsically valuable outside of getting 160k. I think there are many, substantive reasons outside of BigLaw to pursue a law degree. However, many schools’ tuitions are also based on this expectation that their students will get the big bucks (so, as you can see, law students aren’t the only ones with this sense of entitlement). Scholarships and grants are scarce because schools expect their students to get the high-paying jobs. The problem now is that, since those jobs are scarcer, law schools are now the culprits in making entry into the legal field a highly risky prospect. I say the law degree isn’t worth it because I don’t think it’s worth it to enslave yourself to 180,000$ of debt when you graduate, spending a good chunk of your life paying it off and doing the same hours of a biglaw lawyer. Lifestyle firms are a myth (and if they existed, they no longer do), and in-house gigs really require experience. </p>
<p>Just like a correction in the market, there needs to be a correction for law schools. Tuitions need to go down, scholarships and need-based grants need to increase, and the overall cost of attendance for law schools needs to go down if we are to keep the legal field accessible to people, and if we are to maintain the worthiness of the law degree.</p>
<p>Full Disclosure: I attend a T6 and made out quite nicely from EIW. I was shocked because my grades were near the above-mentioned cut-offs, but I really think firms are also looking for personalities, and I guess that helped me out. But yeah, I’ll be starting at a V10 in NYC this summer, and the summer class numbers quoted to me by recruiting have been… horrendous, to say the least.</p>
<p>Not gonna shout at you Flowerhead- you make some great points. I think everyone has to realize the new reality surrounding: law school eduction–Biglaw-- entitlement/expectation of making $160k upon graduation.</p>
<p>I always thought that reality was off base. In the REAL WORLD, 160K salary is often more in line with an attorney who has practiced for 20+ years. If you actually believe that a high percentage of attorneys make 160K right out of law school, then you have been on college confidential way too long.</p>
<p>i think kids who are going through the application process now or in the future are at an advantage. They are making choices based on this new reality. They know not to expect the big bucks (nice if it happens- but please have no expectations about it)- and maybe it’s a good thing as it might weed out alot of applicants who choose to go to law school for the wrong reasons.</p>
<p>just an anecdotal tale- co-worker’s kid wants to work for the FBI or other federal agency. She’s solely applying to law schools where she hopes to get decent merit/scholarship money. Wants to get through law school as cheaply as possible. </p>
<p>So some applicants seem to be adjusting to this new reality too.</p>
<p>and my kid too is now thinking about Fordham p/t. This might allow her to keep job, have some money to keep debt a bit lower–and stay connected to employment/labor field so she’ll have more experience and contacts when she looks for her first job as an attorney.
I think this economy is forcing kids to be a bit more resouceful and think out of the box. And that is never a bad thing.</p>
<p>I attended to a Tier 2 law school, made law review and moot court, worked at BIGLAW for a period of time and am now in-house counsel at a Global Fortune 100 company in a job that I thoroughly enjoy and paid well for (albeit less than what I had in BIGLAW). You would think that I would be one of the people that would be saying, “You can go to any law school and make it,” but honestly, my personal experience has made me pretty hardened to how difficult it is for people outside of the T14. While I worked my tail off in law school, I can say with confidence that pretty much everyone else in my class did, as well. I was fortunate to end up in the top 10% (as 1L grades are graded on a mandatory curve and for the purposes of BIGLAW, your 1L grades are really all they ever get to see) and even more fortunate to have had a half-tuition scholarship that has made my post-graduation debt manageable. In contrast, many of my classmates who I consider to be just as bright and hard-working (and ALL of them sincerely believed that they were going to be in top 10% when they started law school) have had few job opportunities outside of the public sector while faced with six-figure debt. There’s nothing wrong at all with public sector jobs (and I speak from personal experience that I’d rather have a life with lower pay than no life and extravagant BIGLAW pay), but from a practical standpoint, it’s unbelievably stressful to have that much debt with a salary that you likely could have made straight out of college.</p>
<p>Even though I ultimately ended up in the place that I always wanted to be (whether I had attended a T14 or a Tier 2 school), the road to get there was basically a series of straight flushes that a person can’t reasonably bank on. I would have seriously cautioned anyone that wasn’t attending a T14 school to incur much debt to go to law school even before the economy and legal job market tanked this past year. Now, unless you’re getting a free ride or something close to it, I can’t recommend the average person to go to anything less than a top tier law school in this legal environment.</p>
<p>Also note that there are going to be long-term salary and cost implications even at the BIGLAW level in the long run. As I’ve stated earlier, I’m now in-house counsel at a very large corporation, and the only time that we’ll use BIGLAW is for very complex international transactions. Otherwise, we are very cost conscious and not willing to pay the sky-high BIGLAW rates (I know because I used to charge them), which is something that other large corporations that have been the biggest BIGLAW clients are increasingly doing, as well.</p>