Do technical degrees limit you?

Student Lounge College Life
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<p>“AuburnMathTutor – I <em>loved</em> your post!”

  • I aim to please.</p>

<p>“Is Knuth read at Auburn ?”

  • Not as much as he should be.</p>

<p>“I find his clarity of thought awe-inspiring – the little I understand anyway”

  • ditto. ;D</p>

<p>“Just think what the fundamental theory of calculus provoked over the next 150 years. Mind boggling.”

  • That’s really my one overriding hope for the field and the reason I’m sticking with it. It’s sort of ironic that so many people here are recommending you do what will get you a good job rather than what you love, while I am doing what I love and resent that it’s such a marketable thing to study. Normally I’m easy to please…</p>
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<p>BIGeastBEAST,</p>

<p>Look at that curriculum you linked to: no Calculus, No Physics. One HS Chemistry course. It is a rare nurse who has inate technical aptitude greater than an average person. In terms of most compensation for least required education, intelligence and aptitude, NOTHING beats nursing. Today, at any rate. I suspect that nursing will get swamped by low paid aides when the healthcare cost crisis peaks in the not so distant future.</p>

<p>Nothing prevents a brilliant person from becoming a nurse, but the bar to enter and complete a nursing degree is very, very low. The training is commensurate. ~ERic</p>

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<p>Am I missing something? Because I know Liberal Arts schools sure don’t require Calc or Physics either. Typically they require a single science course and lab that can be filled with Bio/Geo 101 - which is HS level course work.</p>

<p>For Math credit, most LA majors can take a simple College Algebra, or even Business Math.</p>

<p>Now, if you are comparing a Nursing curriculum to Engineering programs or some other technical majors, I would agree with you that it’s not as difficult. But compared to a liberal arts major (Poli Sci, Philosophy, History) it’s more demanding. It also requires alot more invested time in the form of clinical experience.</p>

<p>Plus, it provides a good paying job right out of school with excellent job security.</p>

<p>Perhaps you misunderstood where I was coming from. Also remember, there is a difference between RN, LPN programs. </p>

<p>If standards were raised in Liberal Arts programs, I wouldn’t have such a problem with the curriculum. But the courses are so easy and they don’t require any hard sciences (beyond HS level), or math - it makes it a bit of a joke. If they all had to take more science, math and perhaps even a computer programing course I think people would feel less “sketchy” about them.</p>

<p>I think lots of people are using the term “technical degree” as a catch-all to describe a major that provides a skill, such as Nursing, Engineering, IT.</p>

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<p>After a great deal of thought my only conclusion is that liberal arts majors really are technical majors’ intellectual and cultural superiors. ~ AuburnMathTuror</p>

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<p>Well, I was a liberal arts major (Poli Sci), and I sure don’t feel culturally superior to anyone. I mean, why rely on college to provide you with that sort of thing? If you want culture, go out and experience it. You can read all the same books that LA majors read, and you can listen to the same classic music, look at the same art and study the same history as any LA major in your free time.</p>

<p>Some of the most “cultured” people I know never even went to college. So what does that tell ya?</p>

<p>A LA major certainly didn’t make me any more “cultural.” All my “culture” came from independent means. Traveling abroad and personal interests mostly, things anyone can do at anytime.</p>

<p>However, I couldn’t do the reverse. I can’t teach myself how to be a mechanical engineer, and while it’s possible to teach yourself to be a computer programmer, it’s unlikely for most. </p>

<p>LOL…if you want the “Cultural Superiority” of a LA major, go get a library card and a set of cliff-notes.</p>

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<p>BIGeastBEAST,</p>

<p>I agree that liberal arts is varied, variable, and too a large degree what one takes away depends on what one brings to the table. This is why I do not recommend LA for intellectually weak students.</p>

<p>That said, LA attempts to instill flexibility in thought, logical rigor, and concise exposition. At a minimum, students are given lots of opportunity to practice ;)</p>

<p>Take a gander at St John’s College of Santa Fe/Md. Those students <em>read</em> and <em>understand</em> principia, and a remarkably large fraction later obtain maths PhDs.</p>

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<p>Absolutely wonderful post AuburnMathTutor. Too many greedy and heartless people who only care about themselves and money, the kind of people celebrating BP’s oil spill and wishing disaster upon society if it benefits their pockets by even 1%, are going into such fields. The students lack passion or real interest in the higher aspects of the subjects, but are rather just learning a trade in computer science/engineering as a person learns a trade in welding, fixing cars, and plumbing. We need better cultural and critical thinking education for those who are fulfilling such a valuable and essential role in society.</p>

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<p>BIGeastBEAST,</p>

<p>I’m sorry, I forgot to answer your question.
If ‘technical’ means vocational then sure, call nursing technical. However I prefer to call it low-level vocational to clarify that average students are admitted and complete the training, and no college level science or upper level liberal arts is required. From what I have seen, “writing” in a nursing degree amounts to putting facts into powerpoint.</p>

<p>I know it sounds like I am denigrating nursing. This is not my intention. I do want prospective students to realize however what nursing is, and what it is not. It is not “hard” science. Nurses are not able by virtue of their training to enter grad programs in engineering, physics, maths, biology, chemistry, or statistics. In fact, it is <em>very</em> unusual to find a nurse working in something other than nursing, nursing education, or the nursing bureaucracy. The two exceptions I can remember were nurses who went to law school.</p>

<p>Posting that nursing is “science based” is PC BS. So is baking.</p>

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<p>What do nurses do that requires four years of academic training? Better yet, what do nurses do that requires four years of academic training that couldn’t be better done after four years of vocational training?</p>

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<p>So are you saying little to none of your upper level classes were difficult, Bigeast? I find that hard to believe. Reading and writing a lot for a liberal arts major has to be to some degree…difficult.</p>

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<p>What do nurses do that requires four years of academic training? Better yet, what do nurses do that requires four years of academic training that couldn’t be better done after four years of vocational training? ~ AuburnMathturor</p>

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<p>Realistically, what do any of us do that couldn’t be better done after four years of vocational training?</p>

<p>Like I said, I was a Poli Sci major and work as a Criminal/Homeland Security Analyst. Four years of vocational training would have been better, I mean did I realy need political philosophy, theory, biology, geology, ect? Nope. You could take anyone with a good aptitude and train them to do this job, same goes for nearly any other profession outside of the math/sciences and engineering.</p>

<p>Think about it, how many professions really require a Bachelors degree to succeed? Typically, all the job know-how is learned via job training and not in the classroom during college.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately, at most hospitals are starting to prefer college educated nurses (the BSN). </p>

<p>At my school, nursing is worth 96 credit hours alone, and that is not including the prerequisites. </p>

<p>Also the BSN allows for nurses to go into the MSN, you can’t go directly into a MSN with an Associates. The MSN is where you can become a Nurse Practicioner, Anesthesiologist (sp?), etc, and many institutions require you to have a master’s before you can even teach nursing. So having that BSN is great.</p>

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<p>

I can’t speak for BIGeast, but art/expression is clearly not mutually exclusive with a technical major.

This still doesn’t validate your original statement in post #125. Not at all.

The sciences are part of the liberal arts, so from that interpretation you are correct. The thread title makes things a little more complicated with the technical/non-technical distinction.

I try.

Context can be a helpful thing. Go back to post #93 and look at the argument that I was addressing. You said that technical majors (a few were listed) offer skills that are only relevant to that particular field. I tried to make you show how humanities majors are different.

That’s fair.

My point still stands. This isn’t terribly relevant to the thread topic.

Okay, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that opportunities will be closed off in equal numbers even if you make different choices.

Arguments are worth nothing unless they stand up to review. I can say “the sky is green!”, but that doesn’t make it true. It’s a shame you feel the need to attack me personally.

Anecdotes aren’t really useful in this sort of thread. You certainly aren’t the only one who posted some.</p>

<p>I’ll be back in a few minutes to address the rest of the thread…</p>

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<p>So are you saying little to none of your upper level classes were difficult, Bigeast? I find that hard to believe. Reading and writing a lot for a liberal arts major has to be to some degree…difficult. ~ The Rippa</p>

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<p>Not really. They were time consuming because of the level of reading and writing that was required, but the content wasn’t difficult or advanced. </p>

<p>They certainly weren’t as difficult as senior level engineering courses, or senior level science courses.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately, at most hospitals are starting to prefer college educated nurses (the BSN). </p>

<p>At my school, nursing is worth 96 credit hours alone, and that is not including the prerequisites. </p>

<p>Also the BSN allows for nurses to go into the MSN, you can’t go directly into a MSN with an Associates. The MSN is where you can become a Nurse Practicioner, Anesthesiologist (sp?), etc, and many institutions require you to have a master’s before you can even teach nursing. So having that BSN is great. ~ PrincessBRide</p>

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<p>Yes, a BS is required to become a Nurse Practitioner and Physician Assistant, or other things like Nursing Education and Administration.</p>

<p>To be an anesthesiologist you need to go do medical school, I mixed that up earlier I think. What I meant to say is Nurse Anesthetist, which requires a masters degree.</p>

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<p>That’s because the standards for getting a BA (and to a lesser extent, a BS) have been lowered to such a point that almost any one can get one. In that context, NOT having a BA doesn’t look good, and may indicate below average intelligence or the lack of a minimum level of work ethic to complete (what is now) a relatively easy task. </p>

<p>Is that fair? Is someone without a BA definitely below average in intelligence? No. Can someone without a BA/BS be super intelligent? Yes. Are there very intelligent people who can’t afford college? Yes. But that’s the reality and it is the consequence of handing undergrad degrees out like they’re candy. Until we do something about that, more and more jobs that do not require much post-secondary education will start requiring post-secondary degrees.</p>

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<p>"Unfortunately, at most hospitals are starting to prefer college educated nurses (the BSN). "
I spend an unfortunate amount of time in hospitals, and can say with confidence that your assertion is wrong. BSNs are not kicking RNs to the curb. RN is a 2 year program at CC.</p>

<p>You are quite right that jobs in nursing education, bureaucracy, and mid-level require BSN, but transition programs for RN, often concurrent, are plentiful. Nurses <em>love</em> degrees, certs, and diplomas. It is a prestige thing; the practical utility is often (but certainly not always) marginal.</p>

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<p>You are quite right that jobs in nursing education, bureaucracy, and mid-level require BSN, but transition programs for RN, often concurrent, are plentiful. Nurses <em>love</em> degrees, certs, and diplomas. It is a prestige thing; the practical utility is often (but certainly not always) marginal. ~ EricLG</p>

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<p>Gonna disagree with ya there. Typically, all hospitals require continuing education courses and certification for their nursing staff. I don’t know the exact amount, but my wifes hospital requires her to complete X amounts of training programs per year, if she doesn’t she could lose her license. </p>

<p>As far as degrees, well it’s just like any other job. The employer (hospitals) require certain degrees for certain jobs, so if you want the job, you have no other choice than to go get the degree. So if someone wants to be a Nurse Practitioner or Physician Assistant, you MUST get your MS. If not, you can’t get the job.</p>

<p>Furthermore, you have dozens of associations (medical/hospital, not Nursing) that require staff to have X certification to work on X unit, or X certification to conduct X exams, or X certification to operate X medical devices and equipment.</p>

<p>So I disagree with you as far as it’s a “prestige thing”, because it certainly is not. If nurses don’t partake in these certifications, they lose their jobs. In fact, my wife just had a co-worker that was forced to leave the Labor and Delivery unit because she failed an exam (I think she had 2 attempts to pass). She was a nurse for 20 years I believe, but wasn’t able to bass this mandatory exam and was forced to go to another department. In her case, getting that “certification” certainly wasn’t a “prestige” sort of thing, it was an absolute must for her career.</p>

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<p>That’s because the standards for getting a BA (and to a lesser extent, a BS) have been lowered to such a point that almost any one can get one. In that context, NOT having a BA doesn’t look good, and may indicate below average intelligence or the lack of a minimum level of work ethic to complete (what is now) a relatively easy task. </p>

<p>Is that fair? Is someone without a BA definitely below average in intelligence? No. Can someone without a BA/BS be super intelligent? Yes. Are there very intelligent people who can’t afford college? Yes. But that’s the reality and it is the consequence of handing undergrad degrees out like they’re candy. Until we do something about that, more and more jobs that do not require much post-secondary education will start requiring post-secondary degrees. ~ Wind Ultra Cloud</p>

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<p>I agree with you that standards have been lowered, but I’d much rather require nurses to have a BS degree than some guy working in Marketing or Advertising. </p>

<p>When it comes down to it, outside of science, engineering, and maybe fiance jobs, what careers TRULY require lots of higher education to perform? Most jobs in business (sales, marketing, advertising, administration) can all be performed without college education. </p>

<p>I mean IT skills could be obtained via tech schools, so see what I mean?</p>

<p>Realistically, there are very few jobs that have responsibilities so rigorous that higher education is really a must. Typically, you could take anyone with a decent aptitude and train them to perform the work.</p>

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<p>Just to elaborate my point, I will use myself as an example.</p>

<p>As I stated before I’m an analyst for crime and homeland security issues, BA in Political Science.</p>

<p>My job is a highly sought-after job for LA majors, specifically Poli Sci, history, International Studies, Philosophy, and criminal justice. However, the skills that I really use in the job were mostly all given to me via job training and acquiring skills on my own.</p>

<p>The main skills I need for my job are, 1) Light statistics (nothing intense), 2) Computer skills, 3) Writing.</p>

<p>Skills 1 and 2 could easily be taught via job training or independant classes (earlier I gave an example of I went out and learned GIS to help me in job prospects), and realistically - in HS.</p>

<p>Skill 3 is more a personal skill. Obviously you need a good writing aptitude, but the writing is not so intense that you need four years of a liberal arts education to be proficient. Most reports are templated with standardized structure. It’s tricky to learn at first, but after you do it for awhile you can crank them out blindfolded. Furthermore, writing skills could also be obtained via much less time consuming means than a 4 year LA degree. A few community college courses in business writing would be more than sufficient.</p>

<p>However, my employer requires a BA/BS as on of their minimum qualifications, so what choice do ya got, ya know?</p>

<p>And my job would be considered a very “Liberal Arts” career, due to the content and mission, but realistically you don’t need that sort of background. Like most jobs, it just comes down to aptitude.</p>

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<p><<<Truly, your degree doesn’t matter much. Most of the time you won’t enter your “dream” field after college, people our age will change careers 8 times in our lifetime, and our future jobs don’t even exist yet. How is a technical degree supposed to help you do something that DOESN’T EXIST?</p>

<p>Thats why I believe the point of college isn’t to gain a particular skill, but to “learn how to learn.” You do this by getting a wide and varied education (GE).</p>

<p>Honestly, talk to older people who have been on the job market for ages. They will tell you your degree doesn’t matter after a certain point, you just need “a degree.” The real skill lies in being able to adapt to the job market. >>></p>

<p>Hmm, your argument certainly doesn’t apply to structural engineering. “A degree” in something besides structures would have done me NO good. I had to take classes in statics, materials, concrete design, wood design, steel design, computer analysis, etc., etc. These are subjects that would be impossible to learn on the fly. I’m sure most other engineering disciplines are the same. A good engineering education WILL teach you to “learn how to learn,” by the way.</p>

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Business = pre-professional. Since you asked… <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063524957-post39.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063524957-post39.html&lt;/a&gt;

Plumbers don’t fulfill “a valuable and essential role in society”? There’s obviously a value judgment here as to why CS should be viewed differently from plumbing…</p>

<p>@AMT:</p>

<p>While I agree with many of your criticisms, they are mostly non-unique. You haven’t really shown why other liberal arts majors avoid the pitfalls you experienced in CS.</p>

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<p>Upper division computer science classes can hardly be considered “trade” classes.</p>