Do the BSs talk to each other about applicants and potential good candidates?

<p>Does anyone have any info on whether any of the schools including CHADES meet to discuss candidates before acceptances are rolled out? It seems there are so many postings where an applicant got into one school alone and either rejected or waitlisted at all others. Someone also said it is rare to see anyone get into both PEA and PA. I'm sure I'm jaded, but we wondered if the schools get together and if a top candidate applied to several of the top schools, they decided which one would get the student to avoid all the top students going to one or two schools. Anyone have inside info from anyone in admissions?</p>

<p>Based on the admissions results, it appears that way. Only adcoms will know. Most of these schools are part of School Consortia like: Ten Schools Admissions Organization (TSAO) and Eight Schools Association (ESA). I don’t know if these organizations share admissions info, but being members of consortia, some communication has to take place among these schools.</p>

<p>i don’t know</p>

<p>No, they don’t.</p>

<p>Can we move on?</p>

<p>For what it’s worth, I got some private replies, that they do. The 10 school consortium and the 8 school consortium (don’t know what the 8 school one is). The 10 school is:
CRH, DA, HS, HS, LS, LCS, PA, PEA, SPS and TS.</p>

<p>During the process or after ?</p>

<p>Private replies? From reputable sources? Anyone (■■■■■■ included) can PM you. That doesn’t mean the information is accurate. </p>

<p>FYI - the Ten Schools Association does not discuss applicants POST- application submission. They are a recruiting consortium who travel and present together. Therefore, if you show up to a ten school traveling presentation and act like a complete nut case they will most likely chat about you afterwards, and if you seem amazing, they may do the same. But that is not part of the official admissions process. If you never attend any such Ten Schools event, then there is absolutely NO WAY multiple schools would ever be in a position to discuss you. </p>

<p>These posts are very misleading and make it seem as though the schools compare interview notes, impressions, essay reviews etc. This is not the case. The Ten Schools association was formed before the internet back as a way for the schools to pool resources and allow families to hear presentations from multiple schools in one sitting. </p>

<p>Mind you - I am only talking about applications submitted through the normal admissions process. If you apply through ABC (A Better Chance) or a similar program, then all bets are off - I have no idea how ABC or similar placement programs work or what types of inter-admissions conversations take place. </p>

<p>That said, let me reiterate - the schools do not discuss candidates. The schools are, in essence, competing for YOU (the applicant). It would actually hurt Deerfields chance of getting Student A if they were to tell SPS how interested they are in that student. Not to mention that SPS has a certain kind of student they are looking for and could care less if Deerfield likes the candidate. It doesn’t even make sense. </p>

<p>If you are so curious/concerned, why not just call up one (any) of these schools and ask if the application is kept confidential within that school or shared.</p>

<p>grotonalum: How do you know the BS don’t share information? Just curious… Are you an adcom at any of these schools? The reason for this post is to see if the rejection of many applicants by other schools (that are lower or higher in rank) as a way to artificially keep their yield high. One could argue that a candidate good enough to be accepted to PEA will equally do well at PA or vice versa. Many posts on these boards seem to show many are admitted to either PEA or PA, not both. So this thread is trying to see what the cause may be. You can do a thought experiment to prove the point: Move all the PEA admitted candidates to PA and vice versa, at the end of their high schools, the outcomes (college acceptances, SATs) will be similar to what they are at either schools originally. So the artificial acceptance/rejection to only one institution seems to be not based on whether a candidate will succeed at that school. </p>

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<p>Now that there is internet, are you suggesting that TSAO is a dinosaur still in existence now? :)</p>

<p>P.S. I am not a subscriber of any conspiracy theory, but it is fun to explore…</p>

<p>Thanks, Pulsar. You’re articulating the concern much better than I ever could. I heard from an admissions counselor directly that “they all want the same group of kids.” And it resonates with me in that they all want to some degree smart kids who have a lot to offer, a lot to gain and great participants to make the Harkness method work. Why then would a kid who has top notch stats (grades, athletics, community service, national awards, SSAT scores) be only accepted at one or maybe two top BSs? Logic has it that top kids with top stats should get multiple offers. Few do, but you wonder if it’s the kids who don’t divulge that they are applying to multiple TSAO schools, that’s all.</p>

<p>Hey Pulsar, </p>

<p>I actually spoke to people at Groton and Andover in order to get the answer. I was curious since everyone keeps talking about this subject. Please note that ExieMITAlum does do interview/admissions work for Exeter and MIT and her response also indicates that schools do not discuss candidates. </p>

<p>Personally, I find it far more interesting that everyone assumes a child who is “qualified” to attend a school is the same a child who is a perfect “fit” for a school. I know we all get tired of hearing about “fit”, but schools are looking for fit as well. I don’t want to push anyones buttons, but it seems that people assume that being qualified is enough. Being qualified is the beginning of the conversation - not the end. I really fear that my response here will offend someone and I am not looking to do that. Let’s just say that your child may have been rejected for multiple reasons. No one ever talks about personality here. Or kindness. Or manners. But they count and are immediately evident in interview situation (and interviewers at HADES schools are seasoned and well trained). Maybe your child seemed too nervous, or too coached (were you rejected from the first school you interviewed at, but accepted at the last school you interviewed at? sometimes this happens since you are new to the process & become a better interviewee as time goes on). Also, parents can affect the outcome. Overzealous parents, overprotective parents, obsessed parents, whatever - schools often walk away from that drama immediately. There are just too many amazing candidates to accept one that has a parent who could cause issues for the school. And such “drama indicators” may show up during a visit to one school (rejected!) and not during the visit of another school (accepted!). Redbluegoldgreen seems like a kind, thoughtful parent - and despite many people attacking her, she kept a cool head and was always thoughful in her posts and not a “drama” parent, however if she said anything that hinted that she was overly fixated on Andover during her visit, she may have sealed the fate of her son’s application. I have no idea what happened during her visit and son’s interview, but I can tell you that such over-excitement from a parent is frowned upon in a major way. If you want specifics and reasons, please PM me. </p>

<p>Regardless, the schools do not discuss the candidates or their applications with each other. </p>

<p>In regards to your comments about the acceptances you see on this board please realize that these boards are a SMALL AND SKEWED segment of the accepted applicants. Let’s be real here and take into consideration that of the two hundred+ children accepted to Andover, only about 10-15 are on this board. Although 5 -10% seems like a good sample size, it is super skewed. My daughter has three friends going to Andover next year and NONE of them have ever even heard of this site. Also, not everyone here is honest, so take the results pages with a grain of salt. Also note that a large number of kids who were rejected did not post their rejections.</p>

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<p>Thank you, grotonalum. Couldn’t have said it better myself.</p>

<p>Grotonalum: all good points and thanks for the kind words. I’m actually a psychiatrist by training and have extensive experience both in interviewing and being interviewed and picking up on nonverbal cues. All to say, I am extremely thoughtful and curteous and deferential in situations like interviews backed by lots of training.</p>

<p>I will say however a couple things happened to us. At Andover, my son’s interviewer told us point blank that they need to feel special and know that they are a candidate’s #1 choice. When I heard that, I thought she wanted to hear that yes, they were our number one choice, not necessarily fixated, but you’re point is well taken. Maybe in the application, we came across as (?fixated) wanting one school too badly. It pains me because I don’t want to think I am the reason my son got rejected from his first choice school. I thought I had done my HW, but wish I knew then what I know now. I do feel though she led us down a particular path I wouldn’t have gone down had she not mentioned it. My child did on his own write a note letting Andover know it was HIS first choice.</p>

<p>Also, at Andover day, the assistant dean of admissions (?) did say that they run when they hear parents are overly trying to “give them their kid.” I don’t think we did that, but why wouldn’t a school want to know that parents have given serious consideration to the process and after having visited many schools, want to let them know that in their estimation, a particular school is a better match/fit for their son and their first choice, thinking they have the most to offer?</p>

<p>Taking a helicopter parent factor however altogether out of the equation , I will say this: at Andover and one other school it was very hard to get to first base with the interviewers. It was as if they had their minds made up that we were already in the discard pile. Couldn’t seem to get them interested in my son. Andover was the first interview. At another one of these top notch schools, the interviewer told us, “It’s a stand alone application” and the interview means nothing to us, it’s just a chance for you to ask questions. Completely opposite to this experience, for the two tier 1 schools my son was admitted to, both interviews seemed to play a key role. In both cases, the interviews went at least an hour each, cutting down the time to meet with parents, which we were very happy with. They were genuinely warm people who greeted us well. They seemed to be in positions of authority, given their titles. The interviewers both followed up with handwritten notes and we weren’t surprised when he got in to both schools. To me, the interview seems key. No one has told me this, but I get the sense with so many applicants, someone around the final decision-making table has to go to bat for your kid.</p>

<p>Grotonalum: Nice post, but I’m not sure it proves that the schools don’t talk to each other.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I hope I’m not disappointing you, but we have none in the family that applied to BS nor are they old enough to apply. That’s why my name is simple Pulsar, not GrotonAlum, not ExieMITAlum, not even TheGreenMachine.</p></li>
<li><p>Please stop treating adcoms like Gods, they are ordinary people like Tom, Sue, and Harry. They can be cool, they can be slick, and sure they may not tell you the whole truth. If you think adcoms will tell you all the truth about admissions, you may be living in Utopia. If everyone told you all the truth all the time, we won’t need as many jails as we have. </p></li>
<li><p>I have seen many posts from “fit” theorists on this forum. People pushing the same theory for a long time can be prone to “tunnel-vision.” I’m sure you heard of “out-of-the-box-thinking.” My philosophy is a fish that knows how to swim in the Atlantic knows how to swim in the Pacific. An applicant who can swim at PEA can swim at PA. Do my “thought experiment” and you will see whether the “fit theory” holds. By the way, pilgrims on Mayflower didn’t come to America thinking that America is a great “fit” for them. They are adventurers who have taken the road not taken, not some of the happy go lucky BS alums who flash their credentials and spend their inheritance (not a rant about the well-heeled).</p></li>
<li><p>I think you are wrong about your statistics. There are enough people (10-15) on this forum to make meaningful statistical predictions. This accept/reject trend is also seen year after year, not just this year. They only poll a few thousand people to give you statistics about millions of voters. Knowing 3 of your d’s friends not even knowing CC, won’t tell you anything about the other 197. I doubt 3 of your d’s friends don’t know these forums, they may not be admitting it. The current generation elementary school kids I know are more internet savvy than I.</p></li>
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<p>Obviously the schools seem to know they have issues (see the thread on Deerfield Newsletter), but they don’t want the parents who can point them out to them. Makes perfect sense, the schools want only the parents who think they are perfect, flawless. See the point…</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I have noticed the posts by many BS parents that seem to create buzz about their own schools. This is Self-serving.</p></li>
<li><p>For those of you that think BS is end-of-the-world, think again. Einstein didn’t go to BS. Most of the Fortune 500 CEOs are not BS alums. Most Nobel Laureates are not BS alums. The list can go on. However, you don’t need to panic if you are a BS student or BS Alum. There is light at the end of the tunnel. :D</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I think its good Pulsar that you bring us back to the middle. Every industry has its dirty little secret(s) and I wouldn’t be surprised if at least the two related Phillips’ speak to each other behind closed doors. Although I respect all the points of view, BSs are not doctors or priests. They haven’t taken an oath not to disclose information about students. Admittedly they are in competition for the same pool of students, but there are competing demands such as keeping their selection/acceptance rates high. Keep up your critical thinking, Pulsar. I am sure it serves you well. That’s why I can’t give in to the ideation that BSs know best. They’ve only met my child once for 30 - 60 minutes and glanced at some material. I’ve known my child their whole lifetime.</p>

<p>Let’s test the theory that admissions officers talk to each other. </p>

<p>First we need a motive. Pulsar suggests that communication between schools might improve their yield (and consequently cache). So if PA and PEA can agree who gets which students everyone will be happily slotted at a great school and the schools will look more competitive, right? </p>

<p>But… this presupposes that students apply to only two schools. What happens if PA is #1 on a student’s list, Deerfield #2 and PEA is 3#? If the student is admitted to PEA but not PA neither will get the student. Would schools be willing to risk this? The only way such a yield-management scheme would work would be if schools were to communicate with all potential competition, let’s say 20 schools. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if 20 schools were to enter into bidding for the entire pool of top BS applicants?! Adcoms just don’t have the bandwidth for this. They’re too busy trying to figure out who they want to admit.</p>

<p>Pulsar also raises the point that the top students could thrive at many different schools but typically receive many rejections. Sure, to some extent it’s all a crapshoot. Adcoms are using their experience and a close reading of the applications to divine which candidates will be most successful at their institutions, but they are not all-knowing. Most of the applicants to these schools are highly qualified kids who could do well at any top boarding school. Acceptance rates are so low that three different schools could all accept kids with straight A averages, 85%+ SSATs, and a ton of sports and extracurriculars without any overlap whatsoever. All it takes is one misplaced word at an interview or one show of sparkling humor to take the file from one pile to another. The interviewers are not the same and will not see even the same kid with the same answer in exactly the same way.</p>

<p>Schools DO have personalities and not all have the same programs. A small school might be willing to take a chance on a top student who would be overwhelmed at a larger school. A kid who does not have a record of playing team sports may not be seen as an ideal fit for a school which requires 3 seasons of competitive sports. To take it further, a fabulous squash playing student applying to a school that doesn’t offer the sport will not be as exciting to that school as they are to a school looking to fill out their squash team. These schools are not interchangeable.</p>

<p>When child #1 applied to schools he was admitted at his 1,2,4 and 5 but waitlisted at #3. We could tell from the interview that #3 wouldn’t be a great fit for him and I’m convinced the school felt it too. He would have done well academically but we knew he would thrive in a more intimate, close-knit community than school #3.</p>

<p>BTW, I have never worked for a BS but I did briefly work in admissions. The ONLY way I would ever have considered contacting another school would be if an applicant had blatantly falsified a piece of the application. Even then I would have had to think long and hard before taking any action. Luckily I was never put in that position.</p>

<p>Sue22, My post compared PEA and PA for argument sake. The original post is communication between TSAO schools. I have seen many posts in which some schools asked the applicants in the interview to which other schools they were applying, in all those cases the outcome was negative when the school felt the other school was ranked higher. I disagree with your fit theory about schools selecting only athletes. No school selects all athletes or all geeks as they wish to be diverse. I can show you plenty of non-athletes at sports-oriented schools. Haven’t you seen people posting how great a fit Peddie was until they got off the waitlist from Lawrenceville or some other school? I think “fit” theory is overblown on these boards mainly because there are many subscribers (simple supply and demand). I agree with the previous post that the adcoms don’t take an oath to not talk to each other. In fact, you confirmed that you did speak to other schools, even though for a different reason. You said that the adcoms are too busy to talk to other schools. What if you consider that keeping the yield high is part of the adcom job rubric, they could be busy talking to other schools as it is the part of the admission process. No adcom would want to look like they made 1000 offers and only 10 showed up. So part of their admission job is to keep the yield high. BSs operate like a business (have to). Haven’t you noticed many FP admits this year in this economy? Some schools even have MBAs as heads of school. If they operate like non-profit educational institutions that don’t pay attention to yield etc., they should have admitted the same number of FAs this year as prior years. Yield is important to schools as it increases the feeding frenzy. Also, ever wonder why Exxon and BP gas prices are so close to each other or the price of Coke and Pepsi?</p>

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A group of colleges (The Ivyies plus some others) were taken to court about this and the court ruling does not allow colleges to share info about applicants … it is considered restraint of trade … essentially it is likely the student will have less options if the schools talk to each other. I find it incredibly hard to believe it is illegal for colleges to talk to each other about applicants because of restraint of trade concerns and at the same time prep schools are allowed to talk to each other about applicants.</p>

<p>Aah, so they were talking at some point in time! Now I’m reminded of the sayings “History repeats itself.” or “Old habits die hard.” :)</p>

<p>Whether or not they talk to each other, I think applying to BSs now is like walking a tightrope. You need to tiptoe, not let anyone know you really want to go there…look like you’re only interested in exploring horizons and a “good fit,” when what a lot of people really want in addition to depth and breadth of education is an edge when applying to colleges or a branded education. You have to play hard to get and have megahooks. Having superlative credentials is just the beginning of the process. Like anything else, it’s dumb luck whether you get an interviewer who has some pull at the decision-making table and whether or not you were “sparkling” enough in the eyes of that interviewer. I’m starting to think now that it’s a total crap shoot. It’s like Survivor, you try to play the game well and hope for the best. But in the end, no matter how hard you try, you may come up empty. I definitely know now that students who go to X boarding school are no better or smarter than those that got into Y boarding school. This list has been very helpful even if only a fraction of the applicant families are posting.</p>

<p>RBG2, I can’t agree with you more. The admission process is like a black box. You put things in, G<strong>b</strong>e comes out. Too many variables such as the adcom had a bad hair day on the day of the interview etc. The adcoms have a tough job, they have to put a sorry face to tell you they couldn’t accept your s/d even though s/he is well qualified, while they very well know they admitted less qualified donor’s kin, legacies, Children of Dictators, people of the right “fit”, … It’s a business, not a not-for-profit state institution. Don’t let this process get your kids down, find a good public school and they will do just fine. :)</p>