<p>jmmom:</p>
<p>EE-CS is a popular engineering major, and prolly the most difficult combo at Cal.</p>
<p>No one except corranged has addressed what I see as the central issue here: There is about $0 value in a double major, especially a double major in closely related fields, compared to a major-minor, or even a major-with-substantial-course-work in another field. Double majors are essentially marketing, and the question is whether you are getting any bang out of the marketing. It's one thing if a kid legitimately wants to take all the courses required for two majors, or if the kid's primary major interest is completely unmarketable or deosn't qualify you for the grad program you want. But taking extra courses, or forgoing other courses you would like to take, or especially paying extra tuition to convert a minor into a major -- I would want to know what specific difference the kid thinks it's going to make. Based on what I know, the answer is "none" in most cases.</p>
<p>In your daughter's case, I think the answer is going to be "none" in all cases, because I can't think of a job or graduate program for which an economics major is a better qualification than a math major with substantial course work in economics. Neither major really qualifies anyone to do anything without some additional training. Math skills are pretty important to 90% of the interesting stuff you would do with an economics degree, including economics grad school or business school, and (depending on the college) an economics major alone may not be sufficient certification that a graduate has those skills. Not a problem with a math major. And once you have the math major, all it takes is some substantial upper-level economics coursework to establish the bona fides of your interest in that, your familiarity with basic concepts, and your ability to handle it. If you want a bullet at the top of the resume, "minor in Economics" works just fine. Everything else is gilding the lily.</p>
<p>My experience, back in the olden days: I was a Comp Lit major. A few accounting courses and a few intermediate econ courses, and a good financial industry internship, were sufficient to open every door I cared about. (My college didn't have minors.) I probably couldn't have gotten into a PhD program in economics, but that wasn't under consideration.</p>
<p>Well, yes, bluebayou. I am not suprised at that. I don't really think of that as a double major though. It being so easy and all to do the work for those two ;). Do you think of that as a double major?</p>
<p>It's the math/philosophy combos (a very likely pair for one person to find fascinating btw) or Psych/Art Hisroy etc. that I am curious about. If a kid so loves both and wants to do both, I get that. Don't know as how I'd pay for an extra term or year for it though, if they couldn't fit it in the standard 8 semesters. And what I am wondering is about the "why." Is it to pursue two (or three) interests in as much depth as possible for the intrinsic value? Or is it because the kid perceives the world outside will value them more because they have the double or triple major? I guess I can imagine where a kid might hope to get a job as an Art Curator but hedge her bets with a psych major for other possibilities. That is a scenario that I get. But maybe I am just looking at it too narrowly. It's where the kid overloads the schedule each term or wants to add extra terms and/or goes in the summer .... I'm just wondering, if they are doing it because they think it will "pay off," are they right? If they are doing it for the love of the learning, wonderful. They suffer the heavier load because they want to. If the heavier load involves more summer or extra term tuition dollars from Mom and Dad; hmmm.. I think what dstark is asking: is this a necessary or wise investment?</p>
<p>Full disclosure: we are paying for one summer course this year for DS. Not fo a double major, just because with his various transfers due to Katrina, he wants/needs to get a final math course under his belt so he can schedule in courses next year that he wants (and have this out of the way as a prereq).</p>
<p>Cross-posted with JHS. I think we said some of the same things in slightly different ways. He was more cogent. :)</p>
<p>Maybe this interchange I had with a client the other day is relevant. He is the CIO of a successful tech company; ie runs the IT department. He was telling me that his favorite hires are Electrical Engineering majors (over CS majors which are more "directly" related to IT in some people's opinions). NOT because they have learned what they need to do the job. He says that his new hires basically need to learn everything they need to know on the job. His preference for the EE kids is that he knows they have had to work really, really hard and have shown, by that major, that they are willing and able to do so. Have the smarts. Have the work ethic.</p>
<p>So, I'm wondering if this isn't true in many fields. You learn what you really need to know on the job. The specific major doesn't matter so much (witness an above poster's comment that philosophy and music majors are hot for med school admissions). In the pre-med case, or in the cases JHS describes for econ/accounting, etc., you need a few particular courses under your belt so you've got the body of knowledge. But in the big wide world, the name of the major isn't so important. That being the case, what would two majors show? Maybe that you're one of those hard workers. I don't know.</p>
<p>JHS, what if your grades are much higher in econ than math? Then does it matter? I don't mean for grad school. I mean for the working world. </p>
<p>Do grades even matter in the working world?</p>
<p>Jmmom, CS majors aren't good enough? That CIO is brutal.</p>
<p>Jmmom, wrote, "I think what dstark is asking: is this a necessary or wise investment?"</p>
<p>I hope that is what I'm asking. If I'm asking something else will somebody tell me. :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Jmmom, CS majors aren't good enough? That CIO is brutal.
[/quote]
Agreed, dstark. Although he is a <em>nice</em> brute. Apparently, though, CS slackers need not apply. Well, maybe if they've got a double major. ;)</p>
<p>lol....................</p>
<p>I think grades may matter in the working world only in very broad bands. You have to get an interview. After that, I don't think grades matter a whole lot, unless you are up against someone from the same school with much better grades in the same important courses. Grades aren't really comparable between schools, or even between majors in the same school, so I think there has to be a big difference for an employer to decide it's an important criterion.</p>
<p>Maybe it would matter if she were eligible for some kind of prize as one of the top three economics GPAs in her class, or something like that.</p>
<p>"Maybe it would matter if she were eligible for some kind of prize as one of the top three economics GPAs in her class, or something like that."</p>
<p>lol. If that were the case, this thread would never have been started. :)</p>
<p>My wife double-majored in college, and she has a professional degree, and neither major nor her professional degree has had anything to do with any work she's done in the past 17 years. She's a national expert in a field she got into about 12 years ago when it was a tack-on area of responsibility in a job she got because of her experience in another field altogether, and that experience came from a job she got because of volunteer work she was doing during a maternity leave. Her first real job after college (pre-professional school) had so little to do with any of her college coursework it was laughable, and that job (which she loved) has been only very tangentially related to anything she's done since.</p>
<p>Of course, there is a consistent core of interests that has run through everything she's done, starting with volunteer work in high school. It led her first into one major, and then into another completely different one, then through a bunch of barely-related jobs. Her whole career has developed organically out of the things she cares about. But her college majors would communicate almost nothing about that unless you studied her transcript really carefully.</p>
<p>One of my kids ended up with a BS Bio and a BA Psych. She entered a University of California campus as a bio major, not with a plan to be a doctor, but because bio was her favourite class in high school. The school has a mega-intense program and outlines your coursework for your first two years. Bio there requires about 1 extra quarter of classes vs the university number of units, so you are faced with either summer school or a really heavy load each term.</p>
<p>D survived all those basic bio req- 1 year of Bio, OChem, Calculus, Physics, etc., along with some GE classes.........by the end of two years D did not like bio any more, she found herself fascinated with psych, from GE classes. She researched it and could have switched majors, but it was important to her to finish what she began with the bio- she already took the hit on GPA with OChem ;) so she was going to prove to herself and any one else who cared that she is capable of the bio.</p>
<p>Her psych is cognitive, all neurology based, not touchy feely, and there were some classes which covered both majors. With some summer school along the way she could have finished in 4 years and one summer, but things changed with course offerings and it took longer.</p>
<p>So, what was the point of double major? Honestly, I am not sure, except she has both a BA & BS< maybe some CEO will think she is smarter or know she worked harder :p</p>
<p>She is entering grad school in the fall in psych, so it is working out and she seems happy she pursued it. Not sure how I would have felt if it were a $15k semester to do it, but we were already thinking summer school would be a good thing to make the bio doable.</p>
<p>For those considering a double major in 4 years from day 1, I am not sure it was worth going year round (most summers) and taking a heavy heavy courseload. I thought (and still do) that it would have been more humane to ease the load a bit and nail every single course along the way.</p>
<p>D wanted the double major, she got it, I am not sure what she would say on reflection, but she could not see giving up all those classes which were so difficult (difficult curves too) after having worked so hard to complete them.</p>
<p>Her two degrees interlink in many ways and can give her a variety of options in the future.</p>
<p>The picture somemom paints of that particular journey toward the double major makes a lot of sense to me. Like you, somemom, I might wonder whether it was worth the pain ;), but I can see how she felt about getting the props for what she went through toward the bio major. Seems like the bio/psych combo would make a good credential for the neuro/cognitive psych career.</p>
<p>So this chalks up, for me, one type of scenario where it all comes together and makes sense. Which is what I, personally, was looking for from this thread.</p>
<p>I think all of the bio/chem/physics science courses she took for the bio major are very relevant to psychology as it is studied today.</p>
<p>The number of double majors at many schools has increased dramatically over the past couple of decades, as students see it more and more as a kind of credential. While double majors are a great choice for many students, there are down sides to double majoring that don't get much press, even for students who manage to complete both majors in 4 years: </p>
<p>Students who signed on for a liberal education often wind up with something that looks more like two pre-professional tracks and can leave college without any real college-level courses in several broad areas of study (thanks to AP/IB credits) </p>
<p>Study abroad opportunities sometimes get sacrificed or tailored to meet major requirements</p>
<p>Senior years, which were often shaped around an intense capstone-type experience in the major, get diluted, because there's not time to do equally rigorous projects in two majors.</p>
<p>Schedule conflicts get harder to balance than with a single major, so taking a required course can wind up trumping the opportunity to take a class that would be more rewarding intelletually. </p>
<p>If my kid said something like "I only need 5 more courses for the second major and it'll look good on my transcript," I'd want her to really think through the cost/benefit analysis.</p>
<p>jmmom, as a freshman in his AI(compsci/cogsci) dual major a recommended course was Intro Logic, a philosophy course based on principles of formal or symbolic logic, with closer ties to discrete math than to typical philosophy courses. He liked the challenge of the course and did well, but it wasn't a "wow" experience. This fall he took Moral Development as a humanities elective and got that "wow" experience. As a result he decided on a philo minor and is taking 3 philosophy courses this semester-ethics, comp religion and existentialism.</p>
<p>I know that is big philo concentration for one semester but that is how he is when he gets turned on to something. And it will allow him to graduate in time. As a hs senior it was the band he helped form which is still performing and recording for their own pleasure. Freshman year it was ww kayaking. Who knows what will be next.</p>
<p>My son started out as a computer science major and then found he was more interested in Economics. He realized he did not anticipate a technical career related to CS, but was more interested in finance. He then first thought he would double major, since he had already taken so many CS classes, but would have needed to overload his schedule with difficult courses and would not have been able to do an away-from-campus (similar to study abroad) program for one quarter. In the end, he earned a minor in CS and a major in Economics, and completed an honors thesis in Economics, which was probably as valuable or more so than the double major. A friend did double major in both of the same departments, but he had taken many college classes before college (beyond the AP level).</p>
<p>On the other hand, my daughter does intend to double major in Art and another field, and is finding that it is very possible to fulfill requirements for both majors. She is very interested in and talented in art and found that she did not want to give up taking art and art history classes. She realizes she will not be a professional artist, but does hope to find a career related in some way to the field of art.</p>
<p>jmmom:</p>
<p>absolutely, I consider Electrical Engineering & Computer Science to be a double major -- graduates from Cal's program are the highest earners of the undergrads.</p>
<p>Like Cur's D, I would major in everything if I could. As it as, I'm jst doing a single human bio major, fulfilling the honors college requirements, and trying to fulfill the shockingly varied OT school requirements (some want an anthro course, some don't Some want sociology, some don't. One wants technical writing. Two require an Intro to OT course I'd have to take online,, etc., etc.). I considered trying to fit in a psyh minor, but realized quickly that wasn't going to happen. Sat down with UM';s course catalogue, my major requirements, and the pre-reqs of the western OT schools and plotted it out semester by semester. It took a while! :O </p>
<p>One thing I find useful to remember is that if you love one course, it doesn;t mean you'll love the whole disclipine. That's what I reminder myself as I registered for child development (because I just happen to go to only school where life development is TWO courses, not one. Grrr... But I love you, UM, really! Go Griz!): Just because I LOVED abnormal psych doesn't mean I'd love psych in general. I may not like the professors in the psych department much. Maybe I just lucked out with the totally awesome psych instructor I got. Maybe cognition won't be one-tenth as interesting as abnormal was. Maybe it would be more interesting. I remember that I'm majoring in bio because that's what I like and what I want to DO. I'm focusing on a lot more than four years here.</p>
<p>PS: I do find it interesting that D took at least three courses from her fav. psych prof, including a grad level class. He is well known in his field and she had no relationship with him, other than likeing him, pursuing classes with him, office hours, etc., to form a decent known relationship. Dropping his name got her a research opportunity in our new town, the famous prof wrote her a letter of rec and she is going to attend grad school in our new home town, in the subspecialty of her favorite prof. She will have the opportunity to sample other subspecialties before choosing her path "for life" but it was the relationship with him which set her on a path.</p>
<p>Even at a UC you can make these relationships. D is not at all a keener who would form relationships because it could be smart to do, only because this was a genuine interest did she make the effort. Her path in UG work was not perfectly smooth, some terms with Dean's list, some with OChem :D Her GPA overall should have been higher to consider grad school (esp after reading THIS board!) But her actions in actual research and her relationship with the prof appear to have worked well (plus finishing with extremely strong marks in her last 10 classes)</p>
<p>My D stumbled into a Government & Math double-major just because she liked both. It turns out that there were some unexpected tangible benefits to the combo. She's leaning towards a joint Econ/Law program from grad/professional school. The doubling continues.</p>