Do you think American colleges should accept Internationals?

Applying to College
41

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Sakky, Most every "American Success Story" is a story of immigrant ancestors who came to this country and worked and sacrificed and struggled to give the next generation a better life. They did not come over expecting the best education America could give them right off the bat... it was a process of working and achieving and hopefully reaching their American dream. We owe nothing to students of other countries who are not willing to go through the same process simply because they are gifted intellectually in some way.

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<p>Really? Is that right? Have you been to an American high school lately? Let's be perfectly honest. Many (probably most) American kids are pretty darn lazy. Many of the girls are far more concerned about the latest rumors of Miley Cyrus or Britney Spears than about their schoolwork. Many of the boys are far more interested in the statistics and trivia of their favorite sports heroes, than they are in actually studying hard. And, at least in my old high school, the kids spent far more time on their popularity, who was dating who, where and when was the next cool party, (for the girls) who was wearing the new cool fashion, who was taking whom to the prom, than they actually spent studying. </p>

<p>Look, maybe I can agree with you that their ancestors may have worked very hard to build a good life. But the kids? Not so much. They basically just won the genetic lottery. They were simply lucky to be born to a hard-working and successful family in the US, even though they aren't hard-working themselves. President George Bush is living proof of this. He got into Yale and then Harvard Business School not because he actually worked hard, but because of his father. {To be fair, Al Gore was the same, graduating only 25th out of a class of 51 in high school, yet still getting into Harvard because his dad was Senator Al Gore Sr.} </p>

<p>And besides, I think you heavily discount just how stacked the deck really is against international students to be getting into top US colleges. If nothing else, the very fact that you have to speak at least passable English bars most of them. The fact is, the vast majority of the world does not speak any English at all, much less passably. For example, if you're just an average person in China (hence, you're not one of the small percentage of the privileged), you're not even going to get the chance to learn English beyond the most basic level. And if you just don't know English, you can't even compete for a spot at a top US college. Americans hold the major advantage that they are born and immersed in an English speaking environment from day one and so they will never be barred from competing for a US college simply because they can't even speak the language. But hey, it's not the fault of the regular Chinese guy that he happens to be born in China. He just had the bad luck of losing the genetic lottery. </p>

<p>Just imagine the reverse scenario: a regular, unprivileged American trying to develop the language fluency necessary to get into a foreign university. Most regular Americans never have the opportunity to develop strong foreign language skills like that. To learn another language requires a tremendous amount of hard work. </p>

<p>So it's not as if these foreigners are simply 'intellectually gifted' and nothing more. They also have to work very hard. If nothing else, they have the extra burden of learning multiple languages that Americans don't have. </p>

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And by the way, US college tuition is an unfathomable amount of money for us to pay but we have worked hard since the day my children were born to save for this and we will be skimping and sacrificing our way through the next 6+ years to pay with no financial assistance whatsoever.

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<p>Well, let me put it to you this way. Whatever scrimping and sacrificing you may have to do, you are almost certainly still going to be living far better than the average person around the world, especially an average person in a poor country. Would you rather trade places with them? Really? The US is one of the few countries where a "poor" person can still have his own car. The majority of people in the world can't even dream of owning their own car. Heck, plenty of people in the world aren't even sure if they are even going to eat today. Think about that, and ask yourself whether you think they really have it so good.</p>

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<p>I think it's unfair because in other countries, their way of living is totally different. The rich in China for example send their kids to the best schools around that basically force them to work hard; they don't have to go searching for any special honors or english tutors or anything. Only the lucky handful in this category have a shot at US colleges. And they only got rich from family history...not necessarily hard work. And colleges are favoring internationals more and more; Princeton actually accepted three kids from one school for one year in China recently (im not sure which year).</p>

43

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We owe nothing to students of other countries who are not willing to go through the same process simply because they are gifted intellectually in some way.

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<p>See, I would turn that around and ask why do the top US colleges like Harvard necessarily owe Americans anything at all? What, just because Harvard is located in the US means that it automatically owes Americans admissions spots? Why? As it stands right now, I think Harvard has paid America back aplenty, with tremendous economic activity in the Boston area and the creation of boatloads of valuable US human capital, including numerous US political, business, and scientific leaders. </p>

<p>The bottom line is, as it stands now, it is far easier to get into Harvard as an American than it is as a foreigner. Hence, Americans benefit from the 'genetic lottery'. Yet most Americans didn't really do anything to 'deserve' to win the genetic lottery. Perhaps their ancestors did, but they personally didn't.</p>

44

<p>
[quote]
I think it's unfair because in other countries, their way of living is totally different. The rich in China for example send their kids to the best schools around that basically force them to work hard; they don't have to go searching for any special honors or english tutors or anything.

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<p>Uh, really? So you're saying that rich Americans don't send their kids to places like Phillips Exeter and Andover? Exactly where did George Bush go to high school? Oh yeah. And where did he end up going for college? Oh yeah. And how hard-working was he during those years? Oh yeah. </p>

<p>Look, I think we can all agree that rich Americans have major advantages, just like the rich in any country have advantages. Hence, we should be talking about the average people. Who has more educational opportunities, the average American, or the average Chinese? Be honest. Believe me, the average person in China ain't living that well. </p>

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And they only got rich from family history...not necessarily hard work

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<p>Are you saying that no Americans ever got rich through luck? I can think of the dotcom millionaires who were simply lucky to cash out before the bust. </p>

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Princeton actually accepted three kids from one school for one year in China recently (im not sure which year)

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<p>Interesting, admitting 3 Chinese people out of a country of 1.3 billion is somehow evidence of favoritism, is it?</p>

<p>Look guys, the truth is, when it comes to education, the entire deck is currently highly stacked in favor of Americans. On average, Americans have more money than the citizens of almost any other country in the world Americans grow up in an English-speaking environment while most other people in the world do not. Americans have a system of K-12 education that, while far from perfect, at least promotes nearly universal literacy and a base level of education. Contrast that with, say, India, where only 60% of all adults are literate in even their native language (and you can forget about literacy in English). The US is not constantly beset by civil wars and nonfunctioning or murderous governments as plagues the people of many other countries. Americans all have access to food, clean water, electricity, phone services, the Internet, TV, libraries, transportation systems, etc. Plenty of people in the world have never even used electricity, heck millions of people don't even have access to potable water. Millions of poor people die every year of diseases like malaria and cholera that have been eradicated in this country.</p>

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<p>In terms of public diplomacy, I can't think of a way better than allowing international students to attend American colleges, especially for those who come as undergrad students. Also, think about 10, 20, 30 years down the road when those students become leaders/managers in their own country, they would view America in a more favorable light than, say, those who had gone to colleges in France or Germany. We have everything to gain and nothing to loose.</p>

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<p>kelly57, let me just ask you a question:</p>

<p>Do you really think America can survive without the current influx of international students, especially in the hi-tech fields of science and technology which, btw, are considered too nerdy for the average American student? From my limited knowledge, I believe that most of the hi-tech jobs, whether they be in the silicon valley or elsewhere, are currently being filled by immigrants, many of whom were initially supported by U.S. colleges in their quest for quality education.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Sakky, Most every "American Success Story" is a story of immigrant ancestors who came to this country and worked and sacrificed and struggled to give the next generation a better life. They did not come over expecting the best education America could give them right off the bat... it was a process of working and achieving and hopefully reaching their American dream. We owe nothing to students of other countries who are not willing to go through the same process simply because they are gifted intellectually in some way.

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<p>It doesn't matter whether immigrants make up the majority of the high-tech field or not -- even if only they made up 10% of the high-tech field, it's all about allocative efficiency. If they would occupy 10% without protectionist policies (that is, under the influence of the market), that means they are being more efficient than the native-born individuals who would otherwise occupy those seats, and protectionist policy would only lead to allocative inefficiency.</p>

<p>Protectionism backfires 99% of the time.</p>

48

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do you think it would be better if colleges instead admitted only domestic students? like more americans could get accepted to the college of their choosing if internationals didnt take their place.

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<p>haha...this is pitiful. </p>

<p>Take their place? First minorities, then legacies...and now internationals.</p>

<p>Stop complaining</p>

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<p>admitting 3 chinese people from THE SAME SCHOOL NOT IN THE US is definitely strong evidence of a trend that's obviously happening. how many US high schools send off 3 kids to princeton? i know some crazy hard working people in my school who applied to great colleges but were waitlisted and then rejected.</p>

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<p>Try Exeter and Phillips, where the numbers may be high as 30-50 each year.</p>

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<p>No. They should not. Since AMERICAN TAXES help FUND AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES, they should not admit non-tax payers. So yeah. I do agree about the whole enriching the education process thing, but I think American Universities should look at the AMERICAN students first. Then look at internationals. So frankly no I don't think they should be admitted. Anyone whose family does not pay taxes should not be admitted into college. I don't care about America being the Land of Freedom or whatever. It's all hypocrisy anyway. How many of you can argue that all Americans are equal? For example, do I have the same rights Paris Hilton does?</p>

<p>Yes. I am well aware of the existence of private universities with no external resources. In general I am referring to any school with any government funding.</p>

<p>Another reason why I totally agree with the medical school admission policy of only allowing domestic applicants at their schools.</p>

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<p>hyunsook: Did you fail your AP Economics class?</p>

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<p>hyunsook: as I and others have said, it's not as if US students are being denied admissions to colleges -- Americans without equal, have the MOST access to colleges of any human in history. Do you know of any people who are enrolled at a community college because their state school gave out too many slots to non-US students? Puh-leez</p>

<p>American colleges enjoy their reputations because they are able to attract GREAT students (undergrad and graduate). The colleges' goal is to provide the best education possible -- and that means utilizing some of the best from non-US sources. The rising tide raises all boats.</p>

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<p>holy crap i didnt know so many people were going to answer this question. i will tell you guys my OPINIONS as to why american colleges should accept little to 0 international students. i feel that american colleges should educate for the most part, domestic students. the united states is number 1 in the world and to keep that position, i think for the most part, AMERICAN students should be given the education to succeed and make this country better. most likely, internationals will take advantage of american education only to help their countries out, not the untied states. also international i meant like that student is applying from non-US country. i know there are many students here on cc that are from foreign countries and believe that american colleges SHOULD accept internationals but this like i said, my own feelings about this.</p>

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<p>^^LOL
Do you really think US can remain no. 1 in the world if American colleges do not accept international students?
Again, I want to ask if the US can maintain its current technological superiority without admitting international students, science being such a abhorred discipline in the US. Without technological superiority, no country can remain number 1.
I'm sure others can furnish plenty of other reasons as well, from economic reasons to diversity reasons. This is just my two cents.</p>

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<p>3365: my post immediately above your recent one is my thoughts on why your "zero" admit policy has no legs. Can you share your thoughts on why my reasons don't resound true?</p>

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<p>Also, would advocators of academic protectionism at least address the issue that protectionism is frequently criticised as economically unsound?</p>

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<p>Skunk –
Your knowledge is limited. I worked in a high tech/medical science field for over 20 years and most (probably about 90-95%) of our staff were very intelligent, highly capable Americans. Americans are being severely underrated on this thread and I am having a hard time understanding why --- if the "Average American" is such an incompetent moron, our country has remained a world leader in most every category for as long as I can remember.<br>
I have already stated that I feel there are many advantages to having international students enroll in American colleges and universities. However, I feel they should pay full tuition. In fact, I feel that all but the truly needy students should pay full tuition. The increase in financial aid dollars has inflated our tuition rates to their "unfathomable" levels... it's just another form of wealth distribution. My father was the grandson of immigrants who came to this country penniless. His mother had just a third grade education and was widowed when my dad was just 5 years old. However, my dad managed to work his way through undergrad and graduate school to receive a PhD with no financial assistance.</p>

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<p>^^I did say my knowledge was limited:). I apologize for my factual errors.</p>

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<p>kelly57: my birth country's government hooks up people, Singaporean or non-Singaporean to a three year-service bond to the economy of Singapore (i.e. you have to work in Singapore for 3 years.) if they decide to accept the government grant. Usually they get drawn in so much with whatever employer they find that they end up staying. And with the government grant, an education at NUS might be as low as 2600 USD a year. Hell, if you're rich, you get the same grant. </p>

<p>What's wrong with a service bond? Are people just not creative enough? Why must they have such limited vision? The US has far more economic resources but Singapore's tax rate is much lower with subsidies for the poor that are much more evident. Half the issue with the US budget seems to be that there's fiscal mismanagement somewhere.</p>

<p>No, I don't think Americans are incompetent morons -- but since they're truly brilliant they should have no problem competing on an equal or more favourable footing with internationals.</p>