This discussion was created from comments split from: Do Students at Alabama Resent OOS Students That Get Scholarships?.
<p>@fallenchemist The following are average ACT scores for Honors College:</p>
<p>31 for All Honors students
33 for UFE
34 CBHP</p>
<p><a href=“http://oira.ua.edu/factwork/e_factbook/other-student-related-info/honors-college-first-time-undergraduates”>http://oira.ua.edu/factwork/e_factbook/other-student-related-info/honors-college-first-time-undergraduates</a></p>
<p>The average ACT for UA honors rivals that of the Ivy schools and other top colleges and universities in the country.</p>
<p>@voiceofreason66 - Thanks for the link. I guess “rivals” is subjective, I am not sure I would go quite that far for the whole Honors College. Harvard 33.6, Princeton 33.5, Yale 33.5, Cornell 32.7, Brown 32, Dartmouth 32.5, Columbia 32.5 The decimal points are based on my own study about 18 months ago or so. I got curious as to how close averaging the 25-75 range is to the actual average. It turns out that for the Ivies (except Columbia, the only one that wouldn’t talk to me) most of them said that about 2/3 of the scores in that range are actually above the average. Harvard and Cornell were more specific telling me about 70% and 75%, respectively. It was interesting. The lower the average score at other schools, the more even the distribution and so the closer the average of the range was to the actual average.</p>
<p>Anyway, the differences in SAT scores are similarly significant, so personally I wouldn’t have made that statement you did. But 31 is certainly a very high average, significantly higher than the overall school, especially the remainder of the students after taking out the Honors College, which I assume they don’t report. But it certainly confirms my suspicion that the Honors College has very high quality students.</p>
<p>I dont know how schools report their ACT and SAT scores, but Bama does not superscore, while some of the above mentioned schools do. So, when superscoring schools report their SATs/ACTs, if they are cherry-picking superscores, then it isnt accurate to compare with schools that dont.</p>
<p>That I don’t know, I didn’t ask that. I know schools that superscore SAT and not ACT, so it is really hard to say. I guess that just means that no comparisons are ever possible unless it is explicitly stated that everyone is using the same methodology, which is of course generally true.</p>
<p>@fallenchemist Since I had no real number for the average ACT scores for Ivies, I used their reported middle 50% which were as follows:</p>
<p>Harvard 32-35
Princeton 31-35
Yale 31-35
U Penn 30-34
Dartmouth 30-34
Brown 29-34
Columbia 32-35
Cornell 30-33</p>
<p>vs</p>
<p>UA Honors 30-33</p>
<p>UA Honors ACT range is 28-36 which represents 100% of the Honors College, if one was to extrapolation what the middle 50% of the Honors College would be, based upon the overall average of 31.2 ACT and the fact that about half of the Honors received Presidential and National Merit Scholarships awarded, one could comfortably come to the conclusion that the middle 50% at UA Honors has an ACT range of 30-33 which is very comparable to the Ivies and most other elite colleges. Per M2CK, UA ACT scores are not skewed by superscoring.</p>
<p>Well the point of my comparison was that UA Honors average ACT is pretty impressive. I think we can all agree on that.</p>
<p>Yes, we can agree on that last part.</p>
<p>Thank you to all who have contributed to this discussion. Interesting read. The stats for CBH confirm my ds’s impression when he went for the finalist interview. He said the kids seemed to be definite academic peers equal to the kids that are his friends from camps like SSP.</p>
<p>Just wanted to add that not only do some of the top ranked school super score the act, some of them have their own formula for which of the 4 scores they use. MIT and GT do not use the composite ACT score. They only use the a English and math scores. (Neither use the science section) This is GT’s policy:
</a></li>
</ul>
<p>
</p>
<p>Just because they superscore or use just parts of the SAT or ACT when selecting students for admission does not mean that they report admissions results the same way. Does anyone know the methodology for reporting test scores in the Common Data Set?</p>
<p>You took the words right out of my mouth, so to speak @oldmom4896. In fact here are the instructions on the CDS:
So in fact I think that the CDS reports are comparable, assuming everyone follows the rules. We could discuss that forever, but it takes the thread way off topic.</p>
<p>Again, suffice it to say that it is clear that the Honors College at UA has a level of academic accomplishment by their students coming into the school that both exceeds the general student population by a significant degree and is impressive on its own. I still don’t think that claiming the students as a group are at the levels accomplished by Ivy League matriculators is either correct or even helpful to the program. It just doesn’t stand up and distracts from the clearly great strides the program has made. There is nothing wrong with being proud of the program as it stands on its own.</p>
<p>@fallenchemist Why doesn’t it “stand up” and how does it “distract” from the Honors program? </p>
<p>It doesn’t stand up because as a group the Ivy schools admits have significantly (IMO, and in the statistical sense of the word) greater academic accomplishments going into college and, I feel very confident in saying, most of the HC admits at UA would not be admitted to an Ivy. It distracts because it starts conversations just like this instead of focusing on how good the UA students are without having to be compared to Ivy admits and all the good things the HC offers. Statistically the HC students are closer to Tulane, Miami, USC and similar schools that have test scores in the same range and I think those schools and students are quite excellent in their own right. I try to avoid comparing those schools and students to Ivy schools for numerous reasons, not the least of which is that it is just clear to me that they simply don’t have quite the same track record going in. It doesn’t mean that many are not as smart, or as accomplished in many ways, and certainly doesn’t mean they won’t do great things as well. We are simply talking numbers here, and the numbers seem quite plain to me. Looking at them through rose colored glasses accomplishes nothing. Let the HC shine on its own merits, and the students in it shine on theirs.</p>
<p>@fallenchemist Let’s breakdown your following statements. </p>
<ol>
<li>“It doesn’t stand up because as a group the Ivy schools admits have significantly (IMO, and in the statistical sense of the word) greater academic accomplishments going into college”</li>
</ol>
<p>Your statement is probably accurate for Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Columbia University which have middle 50% ACT range of 32-35, 31-35, 31-35, & 32-35, respectively.</p>
<p>However since UA Honors middle 50% ACT is 30-33, it compares favorably to UPENN, Brown, Dartmouth and Cornell with score of 30-34, 30-34, 29-34, & 30-33, respectively.</p>
<ol>
<li>“I feel very confident in saying, most of the HC admits at UA would not be admitted to an Ivy.”</li>
</ol>
<p>This statement is of little value since 90+% of applicants are denied by Ivy schools and this includes students who have an ACT of 35+. Many students who are denied by the Ivies are accepted to Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt, ND, Northwestern and others. Also students who are accepted to Ivies are denied to Stanford et. al.
BTW my son was accepted to Cornell but chose not to go because it would cost over $40K/year vs $6K at UA Honors/CBHP. We did not believe from what we know now that Cornell was worth the extra $136K it would cost to get an Ivy diploma. If I placed this money into a trust for my son’s retirement, it could be worth $millions by the time he is ready to retire.</p>
<ol>
<li>" It distracts because it starts conversations just like this instead of focusing on how good the UA students are without having to be compared to Ivy admits and all the good things the HC offers."</li>
</ol>
<p>When one makes the comparison of UA Honors to Ivies and other elite schools it is focusing on how good the UA Honors students are, it breaks the myth that public schools do not have a substantial population of high achieving students. It also helps tear down the belief that Ivies and elite schools are the end all. Comparisons such as this I believe helps motivate students and parents to further investigate alternatives to Ivies and elite schools and make schools with programs like that at UA Honors a top choice school rather than a safety school. </p>
<p>My son and I saw UA as a safety school, but after seeing and learning about UA Honors it became a top choice. We realized that the achievement level of the students in UA Honors were no different than those of Ivies and elite school. The only real distinction is that UA Honors accepts ALL highly talented students and gives incredible merit awards vs the 5-15% acceptance rate of the Ivies and elite schools that provide little to no merit awards.</p>
<ol>
<li>“Statistically the HC students are closer to Tulane, Miami, USC and similar schools that have test scores in the same range and I think those schools and students are quite excellent in their own right.”</li>
</ol>
<p>Tulane and Miami middle 50% ACT is 29-32 is a full point lower than UA Honors of 30-33. USC would be closer to UA Honors with a middle 50% score of 29-33 but USC is considered a more elite school than Tulane or Miami. USC is ranked higher by ranking entities versus Tulane or Miami. USC arguably has a greater reputation and is more closely associated with being Ivy like in student quality, yet its middle 50% ACT is lower than UA Honors. </p>
<p>In conclusion, I don’t think that those who see that the quality of students based upon ACT scores are looking at it through rose colored glasses, but seeing it clearly through unfiltered lenses because the numbers speak for themselves. This argument extends to all colleges and universities who have similar Honor’s programs with outstanding students.</p>
<p>The one thing we do agree upon is that UA Honors “shine on its own merits, and the students in it shine on theirs.”</p>
<p>
No, there’s nothing wrong with it . . . except that we all know that isn’t the way the world works. College selection for the high school student and his or her family is all about comparisons, from “I don’t want to look at College A because it’s not as good as College B” to “My student was admitted to College X. Where was your student admitted?”</p>
<p>Saying that one should let the UA Honors College “stand on its own” strongly suggests that it’s not worthy of comparison to the big name schools. And that’s just not true. The CBHP students, in particular, could probably get into any darned school they wanted to . . . but they chose Alabama. And, yes, they’re in the minority among the HC students, but they certainly aren’t alone.</p>
<p>Really, if comparisons didn’t matter, would we have a pinned thread titled “What schools did your child pass on in order to attend Alabama?”</p>
<p>1) OK, let’s bring in more data. Average SAT score (CR+M) for Alabama’s Honors College (AHC): 1352</p>
<p>UPenn: 1450
Brown: 1435
Dartmouth: 1460
Cornell: 1420</p>
<p>Besides, as you said the mean ACT for AHC is 31.2 while the mean ACT for those other schools except for Brown is (at least) a “full point higher”, which you claim later in your post to be significant. Which is it? You cannot have it both ways. But I think the SAT separation clarifies the issue anyway.</p>
<p>2) You are not comparing AHC students to those that didn’t get into the Ivies, you are comparing them to those that got in and matriculated, which is most of them that got in. So this part of your reply is moot. Of course there are students that got into Ivies and attended other schools, including AHC. My D got into 2 Ivies (didn’t apply to Cornell or Brown, our local Ivy) and went to Tulane because of the full scholarship, as well as liking the atmosphere of the school much better than the Ivies she visited. That says nothing about anything. There are kids that get into Ivies that attend quite average state schools without honors colleges. It’s the exception rather than the rule, as yields for the Ivies show.</p>
<p>3) I guess if you don’t think it distracts most people from the positives of AHC, that’s great. But in my experience most people would roll their eyes and stop listening the moment a claim like that is made. Sure, that may be their problem, but based on my career experience in marketing it isn’t how right you are, it is how you engage people to getting the message. If you present them with something that just seems so contrary to everything they think they know, they stop listening and/or get combative immediately. Even here on CC, outside of this Alabama forum I suspect your arguments would be derided and torn down even more so. It doesn’t make you wrong, although I still think that even statistically you overstate the issue. You know, not everyone needs to be Harvard, or Cornell, or Brown. I don’t even know why you are so anxious to make the equivalence. To me, at least, it just comes across as trying too hard.</p>
<p>4) I pretty much already addressed this except to respond to
Do I really need to comment on looking at equivalence based on one statistic? To be fair, your original claim was only that the ACT scores “rivaled” those of the Ivies, which even by your own measures you now admit was somewhat overstated for about half of them, at least. But it also carries the implication that you are comparing the schools overall, as your later comments affirm.</p>
<p>@dodgersmom - That isn’t what I am saying at all. Of course people compare schools. And usually they compare relevant schools, at least in the context of this discussion. My point is that comparing AHC to the Ivies won’t be considered relevant by most on numerous points. Besides, the full context of my remark to “let it stand on its own” was to not try to compare stats with the Ivies. I didn’t mean a person cannot and should not compare why going to AHC might in fact be a better choice than an Ivy. That is completely relevant. Also, we were not discussing a small subset of the AHC, we were discussing the entire group, so that is a change of subject on your part. If we break it down into subsets, we could pick the subset of students that got into an Ivy but chose AHC. They would compare very favorably! ;)</p>
<p>Sure, people like to hear that people passed up Harvard, Duke, Stanford, etc. for AHC. I’m human, I love to hear similar things about kids that attend Tulane, which happens a lot also. It’s fun and interesting, especially if there is a story behind it.</p>
<p>Look, I know I am in the lion’s den here in this forum. And I think that I have made it clear that I have nothing but respect for what Alabama is accomplishing in general, and especially with the AHC. But maybe as an “outsider” I bring a more prevalent perception to the discussion.</p>
<p>I am far removed from public education. I have been homeschooling now for over 2 decades and have graduated 4 of our 8 children I am one that only gives bubble tests a nod b/c I am biased against the limitations that a 3 hour “filling in bubbles” test has. You show me a kid that can solve an AoPS challenge problem in 2-3 hrs, and I think you know far more about what that child is capable of achieving then what a standardized test score shows. This is how my kids have been educated. Our oldest had never done standardized testing until he walked in to take the ACT. I learned from him and our oldest dd that taking bubble tests is actually a skill that I needed to address b/c the pacing and wording really threw them off, especially our dd. Never having had multiple choice tests in their lives, only essay and discussions proving their answers…let’s just say that multiple choice questions answered rapidly is a far different form of assessment. When studying “how to take this test” can radically alter test scores, that shows that there is more involved in the testing than what a student knows or is capable of achieving. </p>
<p>All that is to say that while I think standardized tests have a place, I do not think that they are the end-all-be-all for assessing student abilities. They are worth what they actually evaluate. But they are missing what I view as important educationally. The holistic approach to admissions of top schools that seek to know the student beyond their 3 hour filling bubble abilities—that is where we live philosophically as a family. </p>
<p>So, from that perspective, I think @Fallenchemist is making a very valid point. Comparing schools that admit based on a whole admission review process to a school that admits based purely on stats is really not possible. The level of what is done/achieved is not factored at the same weight or even at all. Those outside achievements are important in the holistic process. They are what make the distinction in how a student body is selected (and they are selected) vs. simple admissions. I think if you reduce the argument to comparing test score differences of a couple of pts, the ranges become meaningless when you are comparing kids in the upper percentages. They are a single slice of the whole picture amg educated kids. Who is going to contribute the most to the discussion in analyzing and evaluating ideas in the classroom is lost in a discussion of bubble numbers. </p>
<p>Like @voiceofreason66, I never expected my ds to jump on the UA bandwagon. He applied there as a safety. However, he did fall in love with the school. He does think he will definitely find a cohort of peers that have a lot in common with him and his goals. I also agree that top students with equivalent backgrounds as those being screened at top schools are absolutely found on lower tier schools. </p>
<p>But, unless you are talking the difference between a 26 vs 32 or some other huge tipping factor, I don’t think the distinction between a 31 vs. 33 is all that meaningful. Given 2 kids-- a kid that scores a 33 and sits around doing nothing and doesn’t really care about academics and has the attitude that all they need to do is show up vs. a kid that scores a 31 and is actively involved and engaged in discussion–who is the student that brings more value to the classroom? </p>
<p>I also know that finances play far more a role in school selection than prestige for a large portion of the population. Many of the top schools are self-selecting just based on $$ alone. </p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Do not include partial test scores (e.g., mathematics scores but not critical
reading for a category of students) (Bolding theirs)</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I am not sure that means what you think that means.</p>
<p>That doesnt seem to exclude super scores. It sounds like you just cant ONLY report a section…you must report a score for each section.</p>
<p>For instance…</p>
<p>Student A</p>
<p>M 800 … CR 500… W 500 (not sure if W is reqd reporting, Cornell doesnt seem to report)
M 770… CR 600… W 550</p>
<p>It may be ok for a school to report for Student A:</p>
<p>M 800 CR 600 W 550</p>
<p>But NOT ok to only report the M 800 for that student. </p>
<p>So, maybe superscore reporting is ok, as long as you report something for each section, but you cant just report a fab section score and ignore all the other sections that are modest.</p>
<p>After we saw what Harvard grads did to our economy and system of finance, why are they still held in such esteem? Larry Summers was president of,Harvard for goodness sake.</p>
<p>Hey, @fallenchemist, I may be in the minority here, but I truly appreciate your perspective and agree with most of your conclusions actually. And I’m glad you’ve made it a separate thread because it will serve as a helpful discussion for future families. </p>
<p>For me personally, and coming at this with my own personal biases, the elite honors programs at UA (Computer Based Honors, University Fellows, etc.) rival elite honors colleges, a la Penn State’s Schreyer, where you’ll find kids who got into a range of elite private schools (including all the Big Dogs CC students like to salivate over). UA’s larger Honors College is more on par with the students you find at the elite state flagships (your Berkeleys, Chapel Hills and UVAs, if you will), where there are a range of students, but most (like the kids in Lake Wobegon) are “above average.”</p>
<p>I think of UA’s Honors College as AN (maybe even THE for some) Ivy Alternative, and one that can offer any student a wide range of great options at a VERY attractive price. There’s no need to oversell the school or get defensive when others enter the UA waters with some skepticism or even a bit of contempt.</p>
<p>**The university’s strengths speak for themselves. ** It is MANY students’ TOP choice, precisely because it ISN’T an Ivy. To each his own! </p>