Does anyone else feel like majority of transfer students here are grossly subpar??

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
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<p>The AP pathway is generally only tenable if your high school happens to hold the corresponding AP course. What if they don’t - and many high schools don’t? </p>

<p>But that does point to a potential reform which I had discussed earlier. Berkeley students should be allowed to take the AP exams even once they’re enrolled in Berkeley, and if they can obtain the required score, they should be allowed to skip the weeders. Why should only those particular freshman-admits who happened to have attended those high schools that offered the requisite AP course be allowed to skip the weeders? What about those students who didn’t attend such a high school? </p>

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<p>It is a relative weeder: being clearly the harshest lower-division physics course. </p>

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<p>It’s a general truism of the human condition: when a particular system treats certain members differently from others, resentment is inevitably generated. </p>

<p>Like I said, I have nothing against transfer admissions per se, and indeed, one (impossibly radical) solution would be to simply have no freshman-admits at all, but rather have all admissions enacted through the transfer process. But given that we do have two admissions tracks, it is only proper to ensure that one doesn’t receive special privileges, perceived or otherwise. If transfer students are allowed to skip certain weeders by presenting certain community college credits, then freshman admits should be allowed to skip those same weeders by garnering those same community college credits. Otherwise, the transfer students should not be allowed to skip those weeders. </p>

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<p>But if they’re not prepared for those classes, then they shouldn’t have been admitted as transfers. </p>

<p>The general counterargument of this thread has been based on the premise that transfer students are actually morequalified than the freshman admits, whether by dint of more diverse life experiences, superior work ethic, or some other source. If that is really true, then fair enough, they should have no problem taking the weeders. After all, if they truly are so highly qualified, then the weeders will present little obstacle to them. So, what’s the problem?</p>

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<p>Well, I think the freedom is already there in two senses. First, underprepared CA seniors with low numbers of APs can always opt to go to a community college and then apply, having taken the weeders elsewhere. We can all agree that they could probably make it in as transfers with no lower probability than as freshmen. </p>

<p>And the other sense is that not only APs but community college credits from high school can be transferred to Berkeley in all the cases I’m aware. In cases they can’t be, of course I agree they should be. </p>

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<p>Exactly. I think the problem is mainly with unprepared admits, whether it be frosh or transfers. I don’t see transfers as getting off easy without taking weeders – I just think it’s dumb that either frosh or transfers are admitted when unprepared. </p>

<p>Making transfers take weeders again probably just makes them waste their precious time at Berkeley. I would rather tell the frosh to apply to Berkeley as transfer applicants if they really want to whine, because really, they have plenty of chances to skip weeders themselves, through APs or community college credits.</p>

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That defeats the whole purpose of community college - to have your lower division coursework completed so that you can start as a junior. Besides, your system would never work, because students will never graduate in the required 2-years, much less three years.</p>

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<p>I agree that one should not have special privileges, and I think the problem lies in the fact transfers may be admitted under lower standards. I am not sure if this is fully true, but suspect it. I think standards should be high for everyone. If transfer admits are perceived as competent, namely if their admissions are truly as rigorous, then the complaints will die off to a large extent.</p>

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<p>Basically, this. Sakky, I prefer your solution of making admissions be brutally honest when considering transfers more than that of forcing weeders on transfers, which does indeed delay them for no reason other than to satisfy whiny frosh.</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that I’m not proposing that the transfers take all of the lower-division coursework. Only the weeders. Most lower-division courses are not weeders. </p>

<p>But in any case, I’m willing to compromise. Instead of having the transfers take the actual weeder courses, simply have them take the weeder final exams. I doubt that this would place an excessive burden upon the transfer students. After all, these are final exams regarding material that they supposedly already know - for that is why they are being allowed to skip those weeders. {If they don’t actually know that material, then clearly they should not be allowed to skip those weeders.} I don’t think it is particularly difficult to prepare for a final exam on material that you are already supposed to know. </p>

<p>One counterargument is that those weeder exams will contain idiosyncratic material that would only have been learned by taking the course itself and to which transfer students would never have learned. But if that is the case, then that once again begs the question of why should the transfer students be allowed to skip those weeders? Put another way, why should the freshman admits be forced to learn idiosyncratic topics that the transfer students are not forced to learn in order to proceed with the major? </p>

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<p>That’s clearly no better than a 2nd-best solution. If you see a loophole in the system, you should advocate that the loophole be closed, not simply advise people to exploit the loophole.</p>

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<p>Even whiny people sometimes have a legitimate point. That the transfer students are allowed to skip weeders while the freshman-admits are not is legitimately unfair.</p>

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<p>I think most weeders you mentioned could be skipped anyway in L&S. While I agree with the spirit of your point, that if it were the case that frosh had to suffer unnecessarily, they shouldn’t, I don’t think it’s actually happening! I had no trouble transferring any credits I wanted.</p>

<p>AP exams are there for a reason, folks…and Berkeley is pretty generous as compared to some other great schools with letting you use them in place of certain courses.</p>

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<p>I can agree with this. A transfer I know actually had to do something like this. I definitely think people should be able to test out of things. My impression in the departments I am aware of is that it’s already happening, and I hope it is in others too.</p>

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<p>How is it a 2nd best solution? What I’m saying is frosh can skip weeders, and transfers can too. I don’t think there’s any problem if everyone can skip them. That’s fair. I think the issue is that frosh take the weeders, and then whine without reason. Some are simply not prepared to go on to higher level coursework which, by the way, is probably just as tough or tougher. If someone truly finds the first courses things they already have done in some form, I don’t see why they couldn’t move on. I see people do this all the time.</p>

<p>I think the legitimate complaint may be that transfer admissions is easier, and that even if transfers may survive Berkeley, not all are not the most qualified to attend. And THIS is something I would say is worth fixing.</p>

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<p>Seniors can take AP exams for which they didn’t have the AP course.</p>

<p>I suppose I have no problem with students taking AP exams after they enroll in college :D</p>

<p>But basically, as I’ve shown, there isn’t an excuse to whine here, because frosh CAN skip out of weeders for those who did the right work in high school. I agree that ideally, transfers have to test out of weeders. Courses like 1B, 7B, etc are not abstruse at all and it should be no trouble to pass a placement test. Like I said, a transfer friend of mine had to test out of some courses he wanted to skip because he’d already taken equivalents.</p>

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<p>Actually, under your proposal, Berkeley frosh can’t skip weeders. They can only doing so by not matriculating at Berkeley as freshman but rather attending community college and then transferring to Berkeley. Hence, by definition, they never became Berkeley frosh. </p>

<p>Again, the better solution is to simply allow all students - freshman admits and transfers - to skip over weeders via corresponding transfer credit. Freshman admits should be freely allowed to enroll in community college simultaneously, and therefore the rule barring such a maneuver should be repealed post-haste. (Again, why does Berkeley care so much about what the students do in their spare time? If they choose to co-enroll in a community college, why should Berkeley try to prevent that? If anything, I would think that Berkeley would endorse students who are so dedicated to academics that they would contemplate enrolling in multiple schools at once.) </p>

<p>*Students wishing to enroll at UC Berkeley and at another institution simultaneously must see an L&S dean to request approval for concurrent enrollment. Approval for concurrent enrollment is granted only in exceptional circumstances (typically in relation to availability of courses or hardship). *</p>

<p>[What</a> is Concurrent Enrollment? | College of Letters & Science](<a href=“http://ls.berkeley.edu/?q=node/567]What”>‘Oppenheimer’: UC Berkeley goes Hollywood in biopic film about father of the atom bomb | Letters & Science)</p>

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<p>Yet some have no intention of moving to higher-level coursework. I am speaking, of course, of the premeds. Let’s face it - many (probably most) students who take Chem 3B are not going to take any upper-division chemistry coursework. Many Chem3B students are MCB majors, for which only one of numerous possible subtracks - the Biological Chemistry subtrack - requires upper-division Chemistry coursework. Heck, many Chem 3B students won’t take any upper-division science coursework whatsoever, because they’re not even majoring in a natural science at all, but rather are majoring in a social science or humanities, and are simply fulfilling the premed requirements. </p>

<p>Yet the fact is, many Chem3B students receive terrible grades. Many such students would have been better off taking the equivalent course at a community college, for an A at a community college is better than a C (or worse) at Berkeley. While, granted, they could complete such coursework over the summer or during a semester in which they’ve officially withdrawn from Berkeley, why should that be necessary? Why aren’t they allowed to co-enroll at a community college during the regular semester? </p>

<p>Put another way, why is it perfectly acceptable for Berkeley freshman-admits to transfer community college credits they obtained while still in high school, but not acceptable for current Berkeley students to co-enroll in a community college in order to obtain credits to transfer? </p>

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<p>I doubt that many high school seniors would have the foresight to have taken AP exams if they never took the course just so they can skip the Berkeley weeders, especially given that, as seniors, they wouldn’t have even known until late in the year whether they would have been admitted to Berkeley at all.</p>

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<p>They can, though, and do, through APs and CC coursework before college, as you said. Those who have had sufficiently advanced coursework can opt to replace lower division work with upper division work so they are not bored. This happened to friends of mine in math, who finished most, but not all, of the lower division math, and wanted to take something more interesting to them.</p>

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<p>I knew long ago that this would come up, and check some post of mine if you like - I do mention premeds are screwed under the current system. I think the premed system is broken, not Berkeley’s course enrollment system. If you want that they can take their lower divs at a CC while enrolled at Berkeley, yes I endorse it. This is not Berkeley’s course enrollment policy (which is super flexible) at fault, but the fact med schools require certain lower div classes to be taken.</p>

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<p>Don’t lie, you all know it. MAJORITY are Ivy-League+ rejects and sub-par leveled people who get As and a few Bs in school.
Its not even diverse at all. Berkeley is way too crowded, and they’re forced to admit people from all Californian schools.</p>

<p>Go to stanfordrejects.com</p>

<p>Berkeley is just a joke. I don’t even know why all those rankings put it up so high.</p>

<p>PS: I admit, some from Berkeley like mathboy are excellent people…but its very rare to meet someone as talented as mathboy at Berkeley.</p>

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<p>oh my f u c k i n g god…i laughed so hard. Thank you for that.</p>

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Most schools have pretty iffy admissions policies. I might even go as far as to say Berkeley is one of the few that considers academic achievement to be one of the most important factors, and there are quite a few people who are admitted to “elite” schools who will make you scratch your head when you hear about their credentials.</p>

<p>Having met quite a few people from other schools I have to say that the ones who most impressed me are Carnegie Mellon and Stanford. Harvard is pretty good and MIT is alright as well. Berkeley is somewhere in the middle. This is purely anecdotal based on a sampling of ~80 students from across the nation, so interpret it as you’d like.</p>

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<p>John, thanks for the compliment, and of course, I’ve been saying all this thread that the real problem is subpar admissions.</p>

<p>This said, bsd is right – I decry admissions at tons of schools for the foolish things they ask you to submit on their applications and the philosophy which some of them state they follow, which is no secret. I don’t know where you came up with Stanford and CMU though. Sure, both those schools have some terrifically talented CS majors, but CMU admits plenty of very subpar students, and Stanford admits whoever it damn well pleases, many of which certainly could not have been for their academic excellence, even if they were fairly good.</p>

<p>Caltech is relatively good about making it clear what it wants from students and actually delivering on this philosophy. I generally approve of what they do a lot.</p>

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<p>One reason it’s so high is that the faculty are out of the world brilliant. They can be top scholars from their respective countries like Russia, and simply geniuses. They can be fields medalists, etc. The concentration of scholars here is incredible. </p>

<p>Strangely, the student body is nowhere near the caliber to appreciate these things. All a product of a public university mysteriously being the site of some of the best academics in the world.</p>

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<p>Hi guys,</p>

<p>I haven’t read the whole post and what not, so I apologize if someone else has already posted this, but I was looking on Statfinder (statfinder.ucop.edu) and I came up with the following data:</p>

<p>For 2003 (the latest year in which data for this aspect is available), the GPA of transfer students and the GPA for freshmen entrants is about the same at graduation (3.32 for transfers and 3.36 for freshmen entrants)</p>

<p>However, in terms of graduation rates, the numbers are quite different. Again, in 2003 (just for consistency’s sake), the 4 and 5 year graduation rates for freshmen are 66.7% and 88.0% respectively. For transfer students, the 2 and 3 year graduation rates (corresponding to equivalent total college time) are 53.7% and 84.8%.</p>

<p>Make of that what you will :P, I apologize if I made some kind of mistake though.</p>

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<p>Maybe transfer students aren’t as good as the 4-years who have been successful at UC Berkeley and stuck around, but they ARE better than the 4-years that dropped out because Berkeley was too challenging for them. The whole reason for transfers getting into Berkeley is because spots became available that once were unavailable. What’s with that? How do these dumbed down transfers compare to those burnouts?</p>