<p>Northstar, your random list of people who attended community college doesn't help your case at all nor extricate you from your attacks on the poor-- ten out of eleven people on that list are now old and balding. Back then community colleges were actually good.</p>
<p>"Sunday, March 07, 2004</p>
<p>By Bill Schackner, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette</p>
<p>Stacie Clark has a Smith College degree. Nowhere on her diploma does it say half the credits are from a community college hundreds of miles from the prestigious women's campus in Massachusetts.</p>
<p>Yet that's exactly how the Shaler native did it, saving $58,000 in two years by staying close to home. It's given her a degree with more cachet than those held by many of her peers, who went deeper into debt by spending all four years at lesser-known universities.</p>
<p>Clark said she got a lot out of her classes at the Community College of Allegheny County and was surprised how many credits -- about 70 -- transferred. She's happy to talk about the education she got there, but if others prefer not to advertise that their four-year degree is partly from a community college, that's fine, too....</p>
<p>Not everyone jumps from a two-year college to an elite campus, but it's not as unheard of as some might think.</p>
<p>Increasingly, bargain-conscious students are using community college credits to aim as high as the Ivy League and other top-tier campuses. Some of those schools, in turn, are showing more interest in recruiting from community colleges that have diverse student bodies and learners who sometimes prove highly motivated"<a href="http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04067/281695.stm">http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04067/281695.stm</a></p>
<p>From the SUNY Rockland Community College site:
"“The quality of instruction at RCC, especially in the honors program, rivals that of the four-year colleges I have since attended. The Honors Program gives you personal interaction with high caliber professors you rarely get from most four-year institutions. Without my mentor, Dr. George Krasilovsky, I would not be where I am today. Not only did he provide guidance, but he even took time out of his own schedule to drive students to visit Cornell.</p>
<p>“In addition, you get to study with a diverse group of students who are truly motivated and eager to learn. My transition into the Ivy League was easy, thanks to two solid years at RCC building my time management, prioritization and organizational skills.
WENSHOU ZHANG, ’02, Cornell ’04, currently on full scholarship at University of Chicago Medical School Ph.D. program in biochemistry & nutritional science. </p>
<p>A Place to Discover Leadership</p>
<p>“While at SUNY Rockland, I discovered my ability to be a leader. The Honors Program and my mentor shaped a clear and successful path to transfer. My experiences and the people at RCC created a memorable past that I will always carry with me in the future.”
ANDREA Z. ALI, ’98
B.S. (pre-med) University of Virginia ’01
M.S. (biology) Barry University ’02
Medical student, Nova Southwestern University College of Osteopathic Medicine"<a href="http://www.sunyrockland.edu/CampusComm/honorstestimonials.html">http://www.sunyrockland.edu/CampusComm/honorstestimonials.html</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
Can you admit the same for a student attending a community college (of course their main purpose is too learn, but we all need to eat)? Also, your view of community colleges must be skewed or you must fortunately have visited some of the best in the country.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It is not where you go but what you do when you get there. I have friends who attended ivies, were major screw-ups and never finished. I have friends who started out at community colleges went on to 4 year schools , grad and professional schools.</p>
<p>Sister, gave up college to joing airforce (both of our parents were deceased)
went to community college because it was close to her base, graduated from university of tampa, completed Masters at Columbia, works as HR director pulling 6 figures (back at columbia finishing PhD)</p>
<p>former brother in law, started community college, gruated from LIU in brookln completed PhD at Princeton, now professor at top 20 college.</p>
<p>My next door neighbor went to community college, transferred to a 4 year suny, went to brooklyn law school now a managing partner bringing in 7 figures at one of the larges firms in NYC (leaving because she wants to become a judge- as her husband who she met in law school has his own successful firm, both of her in laws are attorneys- MIL is ajudge)</p>
<p>None of those actually guarantee a transfer. So, maybe one or two (I know the UC's are different though) students are able to transfer, what about the rest?</p>
<p>"Agriculture and Life Sciences; Human Ecology; and Industrial and Labor"</p>
<p>We all know people flock to those majors.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Idle housewives and soccermoms alike should really just stay off of CC and leave it to people for whom this site was created, students.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, CC was created for parents as a mechanism for college counseling services and through the years, the rest of the forums grew and more posters came aboard.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Agriculture and Life Sciences; Human Ecology; and Industrial and Labor"</p>
<p>We all know people flock to those majors.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually those three majors make up close to 40% of the undergrad population at cornell With over 5000 students (so someone is flocking there)
After arts and sciences, agriculture and life sciences has the largest undergrad population on campus.</p>
<p>I wonder if 90% of that 40% are transfers.</p>
<p>My husband completed his first two years of college at the community college (he went on the 12 year plan...this was the last of his year in school). We were newly married, I was the sole wage before teaching salaries could support a college student and pay monthly bills. The CC price was right. After those two years, he matriculated into his university program for engineering. He says that his community college courses were top notch and prepared him more than well for his engineering course of study. The thing that HE noticed about the CC was that the students WANTED to be there. Classes were smaller, and the professors were genuinely interested in teaching well. Our community colleges have transfer relationships with most of the private and public colleges in this state. The course transfer is seamless. There is nothing second rate about gaining a college degree in this way.</p>
<p>no, cornell's transfer rate is about 27%</p>
<p>for the 3 schools in question if you are a NYS resident, you save over 15k</p>
<p>NYS tuition is 18, 060
out of state = 31,700</p>
<p>the tuition at cornell's other colleges = 32, 800</p>
<p>i just want to point out that a lot of people who are poor with 0 EFC do not come from non financially poor households, and a lot of time people put the two together. ... people assume if your financially poor your coming form a less intelligent household, and that is not always the case. </p>
<p>I went to a top public school, i chose to go to CC b/c HS was just boring, i come form a family of 2 PHD parents from Russia, and i am poor simply b/c we immigrated and my mom has cancer... and etc........ my point is that i am not the exception to the rule....... A lot of the smarter kids come from the poorer areas...... </p>
<p>UCLA statistics state that Transfer students from CC do BETTER than the students already there, b/c they work harder. </p>
<p>So granted being poor has its disadvantages, but dont group all poor people into this uneducated, opportunity lacking group..... its not always the case......</p>
<p>Malishka, if you have a zero EFC, you almost certainly come from an economically poor household unless you have someone behind the scenes supporting you and those numbers are not showing up on the FAFSA as they should. Or you have had someone supporting you in the past. The specific purpose of the FAFSA is to determine who is financially needy. </p>
<p>If you are saying that those with low or zero EFCs may not be "poor" in cultural, educational, moral, and other in other respects, I agree with you fully. I believe I said in a prior post that I know numerous families in that situation. But the EFC reflects family finances and if accurately and honestly completed, a low or zero EFC means the household is financilaly poor.</p>
<p>To the realization of some of you crude individuals, everyone may or may not have the same finincial situation YOUR PARENTS might. In many books I have read, it states that the lower your EFC is the more money you will accommodate from the institution and the state alone. Not counting the innumerable amounts of scholarships oftered by the institution and independent companies. Some colleges do base your admission by finincial contribution from the students family but its nothing to jugde someone about. Needless to say, if you cumulate a high GPA and SAT/ACT score. You'll definitely get a almost free higher education.</p>
<p>" In many books I have read, it states that the lower your EFC is the more money you will accommodate from the institution and the state alone. Not counting the innumerable amounts of scholarships oftered by the institution and independent companies."</p>
<p>Not true. What a person gets depends on where they apply and what financial aid and merit scholarships are available from that institution. Whether they get money also may depend on when they apply and where they live. For instance, rolling admission schools may give money on a first come, first served basis. Some colleges only provide up to 70% or even less of students' documented financial need. Most public institutions provide little if any financial aid or merit money to out of state students no matter how outstanding those students are.</p>
<p>While companies and other organizations offer scholarships, those scholarships may be based on scores, ECs, leadership, choice of major, and the companies and organizations may choose to give scholarships to relatively well off students who are exceptionally strong in the desired criteria. Financial need may not be a consideration.</p>
<p>"While overall college-going rates have steadily increased since the Higher Education Act of 1965 established the role of government in promoting educational opportunity, today we still have large gaps in college participation between students from wealthier families and those from their less well-off counterparts. The rate at which students from the richest 25% of families attend college is 30 percentage points greater than that of students in the poorest 25% of families.</p>
<p>Historically, the federal and state governments have tried to close this college-participation gap through the awarding of scholarships to needy students. Financial aid is critical to poor students’ ability to attend college, and without it, many of these students would be unable to enroll in higher education and enjoy the benefits associated with getting a bachelor’s or higher degree.</p>
<p>In recent years, however, there has been a trend toward the use of academic merit, rather than financial need, as the criterion used in awarding scholarships. This use of public money shifts the focus away from promoting increased educational opportunity in favor of rewarding already college-bound students, who generally come from wealthier families, for their earlier performance in high school or on standardized tests.</p>
<p>The research on merit scholarships indicates that they do little to promote college access, but rather, they provide most of their funds to students who would attend college anyway." <a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/squaringoff/03jan_need.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/squaringoff/03jan_need.htm</a></p>
<p>From the Chronicle of Higher Education:
"Neither grants nor median family incomes have kept up with the rapid escalation of tuition at four-year colleges over the past 25 years. More than half of all undergraduates in America today get some form of financial aid: grants and scholarships, student loans, and work-study jobs. Yet unmet need -- the gap between a student's resources plus aid and the cost of college -- is generally greater for lower-income students, even though they tend to go to less-expensive colleges.</p>
<p>Of course, college access does not depend just on financial aid. Extreme inequalities in family circumstances and the entire school system -- the fact that poor children usually get the poorest education -- are crucial factors. And, at highly selective colleges, the academic and test-score barriers to admission are more formidable than financial ones.</p>
<p>That does not excuse, however, regressive trends in financial aid. State governments and private colleges alike have been spending more and more on merit scholarships not based on need. Most aid is still need based, but in a climate of bargaining and competition, private colleges often sweeten their aid offers to favor "strong" or "desirable" applicants rather than the neediest. That has made some experts fear that the will to provide wide access to college through aid -- indeed, the very concept of need-based aid -- is in mortal danger. The fear is compounded by estimates that a growing proportion of the traditional college-age population of 18-to-24-year-olds will be from lower-income families, many of them Hispanic."
<a href="http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:-7YffQmhsE4J:chronicle.com/weekly/v52/i07/07b00701.htm+%22merit+scholarships%22+%22poor+students%22+college&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2%5B/url%5D">http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:-7YffQmhsE4J:chronicle.com/weekly/v52/i07/07b00701.htm+%22merit+scholarships%22+%22poor+students%22+college&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2</a></p>
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You'll definitely get a almost free higher education.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>"Almost free" is a relative term, I guess. In Calif, the UCs run well over $20k per year -- Cal is $24k. Grant aid ("free" money) available to low, low income students is approximately $13-16k per year. Thus, the remainder is self-help, i.e., loans, work study and summer savings. While there is nothing wrong with work study and summer earnings, this state doesn't meet the threshold of "almost" free IMO.</p>
<p>I agree about the "almost free" part, and that the "almost" amount is relative to one's particular financial situation.</p>
<p>In our state, a 0 EFC only guarantees that the student will receive the max Pell grant and the max state grant, which total approx $8500. The cheapest in-state public is around $16k/year and Flagship U is around $25k. The SEOG is a variable, some colleges gave us the max and some gave us nothing at all. The ACG finally came through late last year, but only offers $750 for first year students. </p>
<p>My son managed to get some great merit scholarships to the private schools, but still the total aid package of grants and scholarships only covered about 2/3 of the coa, and he would have been taking on at least $40-$50k in loans over 4 years. For some people, that would be a bargain, but for us it just wasn't an option.</p>
<p>Being in this situation, we learned to aim high but to also have a safety school that is affordable, just in case the aid doesn't come through. </p>
<p>FWIW, S is extremely happy at the honors college at state. Originally he was going to try to transfer out after a couple of years (hoping for the SMART grant) but now wants to stay for 4 and try for grad school at Flagship. Our situation wasn't exactly ideal, but everything did work out, as I hope it does for the OP.</p>
<p>"Almost free" is a relative term, I guess. In Calif, the UCs run well over $20k per year -- Cal is $24k. Grant aid ("free" money) available to low, low income students is approximately $13-16k per year. Thus, the remainder is self-help, i.e., loans, work study and summer savings. While there is nothing wrong with work study and summer earnings, this state doesn't meet the threshold of "almost" free IMO."</p>
<p>This is inaccurate, UCs are 25k for OUT OF STATE, in state they are about 7k. ... it is 23k when housing/transportation/etc are factored in, not just tuition.
You could by all means survive on less money than is questimated by the state, you can even live at home and then all you have to put out is the tuition bill itself, which for the UCs is cheap.</p>
<hr>
<p>"Malishka, if you have a zero EFC, you almost certainly come from an economically poor household unless you have someone behind the scenes supporting you and those numbers are not showing up on the FAFSA as they should. Or you have had someone supporting you in the past. The specific purpose of the FAFSA is to determine who is financially needy.</p>
<p>If you are saying that those with low or zero EFCs may not be "poor" in cultural, educational, moral, and other in other respects, I agree with you fully. I believe I said in a prior post that I know numerous families in that situation. But the EFC reflects family finances and if accurately and honestly completed, a low or zero EFC means the household is financilaly poor."</p>
<p>Yes, i meant poor in the cultural,educational, moral respect, i was even going to put "poor" in qutation marks. I just didnt like how some people viewed being poor..... everyone always pictures someone living in the ghetto and being an uneducated fool, etc,etc,etc, and i just want people to realize that sometimes you can be poor from a very educated and affluent home as well.</p>
<p>maliska:</p>
<p>please verify your data points. The UC-appoved budget for a Cal dorm is $24k in-state (over $40k OOS), and UCLA is slightly lower. The vast majority of kids who attend the UCs do not live at home, tho some do. Regardless, the UC-approved budget for Berkeley commuters is $17k, all-in. Regardless of whether a student lives at home or in an apartment or a dorm, they still have to eat and buy books and a bus/parking pass.</p>
<p>I said that its 23k when housing/transportation/etc are factored in ... its 23k something, it is most likely closer to 24k. I was saying that in terms of tuition its significantly cheaper than that b/c when i read your post i thought you were reffering to tuition.</p>
<p>If you look at NYU for example, its 34k for JUST tuition, which is ridicolous, and same goes for USC ...... for schools like that, i dont see why kids even expect to get full aid........ with 34k in just tuition, you can easily add another 16k for living expenses, thats 50k a year......... thats hefty for undergrad.</p>
<p>actually, I'm glad you brought up NYU, a school well-known for being less generous for finaid. Even with an efc of zero, NYU would expect most kids to come up wiht some cash -- they'll obviously figure out a way to make it work for kids they really want. OTOH, USC is generous with merit aid to NMF's -- $15k discount to most everyone, so it becomes a better value for high scoring psat's.</p>