Does being out of school for years affect PhD admissions?

Graduate School
1

I’m a freshman CS major, and I’m seriously considering a PhD program, but I’m not quite sure about the timing. On the one hand, all the time I hear people talking about how hard it is to get back to school after leaving school for a while; on the other hand, I don’t want to jump right into a 5-6 year long commitment before I explore my options and get some more industrial experience than my internships had to offer.

Let’s imagine we have two applicants, A and B, both applying to the EECS PhD program at MIT; A just graduated from X University, whereas B, an X University alum, has been working as a software engineer at Google for 3 years after college. Assuming that B had exactly the amount of research experience, GPA, GRE, and other stats as A when he graduated 3 years ago, would the fact that B has been out of an academic environment for 3 years hurt his application? Which applicant would be looked upon more favorably by the admission committee? What if the number ‘3’ is changed to, say ‘10’?

2

I may be wrong about this, but from I gathered, the problem isn’t that they are looked upon unfavorably, it’s that it isn’t that simple to drop it all.

Let me explain:

You graduated from university X around…5 years ago. By this point, you’ve already established yourself in a different city. You’ve got a house, a girlfriend/fiance/wife, a dog or two, and, most importantly, a job. Would you say it would be easy to uproot all of that to go back to school? What would you do with your house? Would your significant other stay at home or follow you? Where would the pets go? And, most of all, would you quit your job?

I can’t assume that employers would leave your slot open for the years it takes to get your PhD, or your masters (which most people already working seem to gravitate towards). If you wanted to keep working there, you’d be in a dilemma, since you’ll be in school for around 5-6 years.

By the time that this person has decided to apply to a place like MIT, to use your example, they could be living in California. They’d most likely have to drop everything to go. Most people who originally planned to go back to school simply never do because of this.

So, again, I don’t think that being out of the higher education system for a while negatively impacts you. Its just that much, much less people do it than students who have barely graduated, and so don’t have as much tying them down.

You get me?

3

As @NoYetEngineer says, the biggest challenge will be to make the change from being a well-paid software engineer to a poor graduate student. Graduate programs look favorably on real world experience and I know a number of graduate students who have decided on a career change and quit to go get a Ph.D. Once they make the decision the rest is relatively easy and if you have good grades and strong letters of reference, then you should be able to get into a good program.

4

@xraymancs and @NotYetEngineer:
Thanks for your insight, and I am starting to see how hard it is to predict/plan my future.
I asked this question because I have this scholarly enthusiasm for research and cutting edge technology, meanwhile I like the excitement and opportunities of working for tech companies in the Silicon Valley. The only way I can think of combining these two would be working in the R&D department for tech companies (like Microsoft Research), which usually require PhD degrees. In my hypothetical situation, person B can be some programmer at Google who soon finds out that all the data-mining and machine-learning research going on at the R&D department seems far more exciting than his daily coding, and decides to get a PhD for that (let’s say he applies to Stanford so he doesn’t have to uproot everything :slight_smile: )

I always wanted to go to a top school (which I’m unable to do at undergrad level due to a series of complications), so my real concern has been whether I need to apply immediately after college in order to maximize my chances. And I’m glad it doesn’t seem to be the case (at least according to you guys!)

5

Just in terms of admissions, I would think that time off would actually help in terms of PhD admissions, because at that point, it’s clear that you’ve tried some other things out, and really want the PhD, as opposed to going straight into a PhD program because you have no idea what you want to do (if that makes sense)

6

Like everyone already said, no, taking time off won’t necessarily hurt you, and could help you depending on what you do in the mean time… This is especially true if you stay in-field and work, and perhaps get some research experience while you are working (aka seek out a job in an R&D department, for example).

A couple of things though. Number one, PhD programs are competitive and the top ones in desirable locations are even more competitive. In your hypothetical example, the kid who wants to stay in California could certainly apply to Stanford’s PhD program in computer science (top 5, some would say absolute #1), but there’s no guarantee he’ll get in. PhD hopefuls really need to be as geographically flexible as possible. Let’s say you live in CA, you’re living the dream on that Google salary, and then you get into Princeton, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, but not Stanford (or Berkeley or UCSB). Those are all excellent programs too! You need to be willing to move.

Number two, be careful that you are not using this as an outlet or your “chance” to go to a top school because you didn’t get to go to one in undergrad. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t go to a top school (you should, obviously!) but just make sure that’s not a primary motivation to return. The experience at a top school as a grad student is very different from that of an undergrad. Also, sometimes the best programs in your field are not schools that others would recognize as elite. Examples in CS would be Stony Brook, UIUC, Maryland, UCSB, UCR, Rochester, Michigan State, Nebraska, Purdue, Minnesota, LSU, Arizona State, Ohio State, and SUNY-Buffalo. Top 30(ish) programs in CS, but not the universally recognized places that people (not from CC) will recognize or think of as elite. That’s okay, though, because you don’t care what people think - you care what employers think! (Of course, the usual suspects are there too.)

My last is that I believe this: for those scores of people who wanted to do a PhD and decided 5 to 10 years later that they no longer want that, that’s totally okay - it’s because they didn’t need to any longer. If you’re at Google in 7 years and they’re paying you $95,000 a year or whatever and you’re happy with your house, your car, your girlfriend, your job, your living situation - and you decided not to get a PhD - that’s a triumph, not a failure. Not everyone needs a PhD, and it’s my completely hypothetical guess that at least 70% of the undergrads who say that they want a PhD don’t need one to do what they want to do in life (or would be just as happy, or happier, doing something completely different).

7

I went back to school for a PhD in engineering in my early 30’s and I finished recently, so I can perhaps give some advice. I have found this to actually be a major area of debate and even study among profs and administration. I was even interviewed for an hour to be part of some study of older experienced professionals going back to get a PhD…they paid me for my time.

I really think there are two questions here, even though you are asking only one.

  1. Does age and work experience hurt or help your chances of admission and success in grad school.

The answer is that they can only help. You are more mature. You know how to plan and organize for a project (whether it be in a class or your thesis). You have seen and worked with some of the material you are studying in grad school. You know why you want to be in grad school. Savvy profs will realize this.

  1. Does being out of school for several years affect your chances of admission or success in grad school.

This is a more difficult question to answer…the short answer is “Yes, sometimes it negatively affects things”…in my opinion.

The main issue is if you don’t have a Masters degree and decide to go back. Grad courses are taught differently than undergrad classes. There are more projects, and you need to understand the material in more depth. Also, if you take several years off, you will just need to get you head back into studying and learning. This is difficult. The problem is for somebody going back to grad school without a Masters degree after being out of school for several years is that they must both adjust to grad courses for the first time and adjust to studying again. This is very tough, and sometimes it does not work out.

The second problem is “the research” of people who go back to get a PhD without first having a Masters degree. Basically, I have found their research to just not be very good…even when they do succeed in getting the PhD. The problem is that they have been patterned by years in industry to work at the level of somebody with a bachelors because that is all they have. Somebody who has worked in industry with a Masters degree will have worked at a higher level and will have found connections between their work and their grad courses. Somebody who goes straight thru from undergrad to PhD, without working in between, are easier for the profs to mold into somebody who will think like a person with a PhD. However, if you’ve have worked in industry with just a bachelors degree and go back to school, you are patterned to do a different type of work, and, to some degree, profs will feel that you need to “unlearn” stuff.

Profs will not flat out say they won’t look at experienced students for PhD positions, but they will quietly not accept them if they don’t have a masters degree. If I were a prof, I would have concerns taking a student who had been out of school for years and did not have a Masters degree. Many companies allow you to get a masters degree while working. You should potentially take advantage of these programs. I have certainly seen somebody getting a Masters degree while working and then go back for the PhD.

I read thru @NotYetEngineer‌ response. I don’t really agree actually. Sometimes profs give this as an excuse to discourage more experienced students from coming back to grad school. Engineers go from job to job in many cities throughout their careers. Engineering PhD students get a stipend, and often the older ones have a significant other who works. It is just not that big of an issue…It is really just like taking a much lower paying job.

8

Another factor to consider: the longer you are out of college, how well will the professors you’re asking for a LOR from remember you? Indeed, if they’re older, and it’s another 10 years, they might have retired or (worst case scenario) even died.

9

@jack63: would you please explain a little bit why you went back to school for a PhD? (I’m guessing you want to have a career change? I’d really like to hear about it :slight_smile: )

@Conformist1688: you actually brought up a great point… I’ve always wondered what it’s like to work on a PhD application for someone out of school for a while. Is there a stringent requirement on having rec letters from professors at the institution where you most recently graduated from?
Would the admissions people be understanding towards these elder applicants since, like you said, they might have very likely lost contact with their professors? (maybe you can substitute rec letters from your boss or someone (maybe even a prof) you worked with in industry?)

10

Since you are a freshman, it is a good idea for you to see what opportunities there are at your college for research with professors and/or grad students. You can start to get an idea if of what is involved in different areas of research and you can get some insight if grad school is the right decision for you, a decision you will likely make at the end of your junior year. If you don’t have research as an undergrad it will be more difficult for you. Research experiences are also good for help creating a resume and you will have something to talk about with potential internships. You can also apply for internships and REU’s for each summer, ideally doing one of each, with additional research project during the school year. You can also join whatever clubs your school has that do projects, like robotics club, hacker clubs etc that can give your projects and experiences.

I really think with all your posts as a freshman is lacking the coursework and projects and experience to make any informed decisions. You act like you are at a decision point instead of seeing that you need to create a plan and gain experiences as you go along in your undergrad program. So I really suggest focusing on what you can do in the next couple of years for your education.

11

I think you definitely need an academic LOR - from someone who knows your work in a school rather than work setting. Talk to your current profs and get their take on it.

12

Every grad student I’ve spoken to recommends gap years as:

  1. Great learning experiences in regards to your own goals
  2. Good-looking on your application
  3. Really helpful for getting experienced with techniques/skills/etc you may need in grad school

Mind, these are neuro/bio grad students, and the gap years I’ve asked them about would be to do research-based work, so it’s a little different. But ultimately I don’t think it’s a weakness at ALL to have extra work experience going into a PhD.

Also I think standard form is to get at least one letter of rec from both undergrad and post-grad work sources. Both are valuable.

13

Sure…I went thru a number of jobs as an engineer, and I thought it was really no fault of my own. My group was sold, there was a site closure, or most of my dept. was downsized. This was not inherently bad. When I found a new job, I’d get a raise, bonus, and sometimes make money off a severance. The issues was the following:

  1. In the last 15 years, the American economy has the tendency to just stop. the 2001 recession hit tech especially hard, and the great recession hit everybody hard. It is ok to go from job to job, but if you are playing musical chairs with jobs, and the music stops and you don't have a chair, you're screwed. You join the ranks of the long-term unemployed. This happened to me. It is certainly a large part of why I went back to grad school, and why I'd like to be a prof.
  2. Industry treats people over 50 very poorly. If you think about it, most people are fully capable of working until they're 75 or 80. I once was in a meeting where a manager described how the company was illegal targeting older employees in a planned layoff. It was one of those things where the company said, we will offer voluntary retirements, but if you don't take it, you may be laid off....there will be a layoff if enough employees don't retire. The manager said the company had looked at the ages of employees before planning this. He also said he knew this was illegal. Other companies have been sued for such actions, but most just get away with it. I guess this affected me.
  3. I used to do a lot of interviewing. Like most engineers, I though it would be cool to work in a start-up in silicon valley. I quickly found that most of those start-ups were either started at a university or employed mostly PhDs.
  4. I was bored stiff working as an engineer in industry. I wanted to think about complex problems and not get punished for trying to innovate or think deeply about an engineering problem.

I went back to grad school. Getting an PhD is stressful and frustrating. Funding is a pain in the a$$. Nothing is perfect, but I am happy with my decision.