Does Columbia have the luxury of turning down Great Students?

<p>Purely for an academic debate- (not at all a flame thread)</p>

<p>It seems to me that some schools, specifically HYPMS have the luxury of turning down applicants with near-perfect SAT's, SAT II's, amazing recommendations, and the whole spiel. They seem to search for a ... "x-factor" that really distinguishes a student. Purely statistically, they have more than enough students of high calibers that can more than fill the class over so they can pick out "interesting" people as well.</p>

<p>However, does the same hold true for Columbia? Granted Columbia's academic-reality is probably on par with these institutions, but I think one would have to claim ignorance to say that Columbia's reputation is completely on par with HYPMS. Being such, can Columbia afford to (or even to a lesser extent) reject students that have those simply amazing stats, grades, reccs, but w/o a "hook" that may otherwise get them into HYMPS? For some reason, I can't imagine a student with 2400, 2 x 800's SAT II's, 4.0 UW GPA, amazing reccs and decent (not spectacular EC's) being rejected from Columbia while I can definitely see this (and know it happens) at schools like HYP and to a lesser extent MS.</p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

<p>columbia rep said that they rejected 2/3 of 2400's last year</p>

<p>oh hrm... heh...</p>

<p>What the hell is HYPMS? Is that someone from HYP with multiple sclerosis?</p>

<p>or someone from HY with PMS</p>

<p>MS is MIT/Stanford i think</p>

<p>Since when did MIT get lumped with HYPS (S seemed to have joined HYP over the last 10 years that I've been following this game)? Seems pretty out of place to me.</p>

<p>even though this is a wonderful discussion about some stupid acronym, i will actually answer the OP's question....</p>

<p>the answer is absolutely....i would say that if you are simply coasting on having near perfect numbers (especially if you are an overrepresented race) you shouldnt be shocked if you get rejected..... they know that ppl with perfect SATs and good grades but thin ECs and no passion are the ones who tend to burn out in college because they have no direction and ontop of that won't add anything to the student body since they'll just be in their rooms studying all the time...thats not what most colleges want....that could actually be more acceptable at places like MIT.</p>

<p>Stop assuming large numbers of Asians are being rejected because they often have "thin ECs and no passion (and) are the ones who tend to burn out in college"</p>

<p>The reality is they are being rejected, simply because often with SAT scores and grades/class rank so high and the rejections so blatant, schools need to find excuses. (like the X factor claim) to reject them, and because schools to meet their long cherished "diversity" quotas end up admitting very large numbers of (invariably far less qualified) URMs </p>

<p>Another strategy (as per ABC's 20/20 report the other night) is to attempt to pretend that super wealthy students are now taking all the spots in their place - which is absurd, because even with developmental admits -there numbers are not increasing </p>

<p>Now there is an emerging trend among wealthy students to be getting Fake LD diagnosis for extended time SATs - but however I doubt that currently is a major factor relative to Asians being held to a higher standard in some of these schools</p>

<p>Have you looked at their admissions statistics recently? Of course they have the luxury of rejecting people with perfect scores. Most of the people who apply are fully qualified, and yet they are only able to accept 10%.</p>

<p>"Have you looked at their admissions statistics recently? Of course they have the luxury of rejecting people with perfect scores. Most of the people who apply are fully qualified, and yet they are only able to accept 10%."</p>

<p>But at the same time... I think few people would claim that Yale's 9.3% is the same thing as Columbia's 9.6% simply because Columbia accepts nearly 40% of their class through ED leaving a LOT LESS spots to be filled during RD. And I think people are more likely to apply to Columbia "for-the-heck-of-it" given it's unique location than somewhere like Yale IMO.</p>

<p>Why are people responding to this post??? This person obviously has an agenda as a troll?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Stop assuming large numbers of Asians are being rejected because they often have "thin ECs and no passion (and) are the ones who tend to burn out in college"</p>

<p>The reality is they are being rejected, simply because often with SAT scores and grades/class rank so high and the rejections so blatant, schools need to find excuses. (like the X factor claim) to reject them, and because schools to meet their long cherished "diversity" quotas end up admitting very large numbers of (invariably far less qualified) URMs

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't understand posts like this. Are you somehow implying that Asians are subject to racial "unpreferences" vis-a-vis other "overrepresented" non-URM groups like WASPs, Jews, Arabs, Indians, etc.? Do you have a shred of evidence to support this notion that there's a giant conspiracy operating against Asians, and that somehow every white kid with a high scores/grades is being accepted?</p>

<p>"Do you have a shred of evidence to support this notion that there's a giant conspiracy operating against Asians"</p>

<p>No one said it's a giant conspiracy - however the discrimination against high achieving Asian students is become increasingly obvious to many - however that same discrimination is occurring against high achieving caucasian students, especially middle class students - it's just with Asians because of their (generally) better stats -it's often a bit more obvious </p>

<p>The URM "diversity" programs exact an increasingly steep toll on students competing on the merits- and that cost is generally at the expense of asian and caucasion applicants. Items such as "Holistic" admissions criteria, "the X factor", and other fuzzy notions - along with selective super-heavy emphasis on essays for selective URM candidates (which easily be rigged ), recommendations (which often have little meaning) and other sometimes "fuzzy" criteria - allow the universities and colleges to engage in their (often little more than) disguised racial quota systems -keeping one step ahead of the courts. Most importantly no precise audit trail is being left as to exactly what occurs when the final selections are made by the AD COMs </p>

<p>One "shred" from a Forbes commentary below</p>

<p>(begin quote)</p>

<p>From Forbes Magazine:</p>

<p>UC Discriminates Against Asians
By John Moores
Forbes | March 24, 2004</p>

<p>When Governor Gray Davis appointed me to the Board of Regents of the University of California in 1999, I recognized the university's responsibility to extend the opportunity for academic achievement to as many capable students as the resources of the nation's premier public university allow. Sadly, today's UC admissions policies are victimizing students--not just those unfairly denied admission but also many with low college entrance exam scores who were admitted and can't compete. </p>

<p>The California electorate voted to stop racial preference in college admission in 1996. Since then UC administrators have been manipulating the admissions system and, I believe, thwarting the law. (Although I have been the board's chairman since 2002, I'm just one vote.) UC, Berkeley, the top school in the UC system, is admitting "underrepresented minorities" with very low SAT scores while rejecting many applicants with high SAT scores. </p>

<p>Prompted by many complaints from parents whose high-scoring children were rejected by Berkeley, I started probing admissions records. I learned that 359 students with combined SAT scores of 1,000 or less were admitted to Berkeley in 2002, accounting for 3% of the 10,905 students admitted that year. (The national SAT average is about 1,000.) Of those 359 students, 231 were from underrepresented minorities--meaning blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans. Only 19 of the low scorers were white. Some 1,421 Californians with SAT scores above 1,400 applying to the same departments at Berkeley were not admitted. Of those, 662 were Asian-American, while 62 were from the underrepresented minorities. </p>

<p>How did the university get away with discriminating so blatantly against Asians? Through an admissions policy with the vague term "comprehensive review." The policy includes factors like disabilities, low family income, first generation to attend college, need to work, disadvantaged social or educational environment, difficult personal and family situations. This means that a student from a poor background whose parents didn't go to college is given preference over a kid raised by middle-class, educated parents--all other things being equal. </p>

<p>Nobody believes that the SAT is a perfect predictor of academic success, but it's silly to pretend that very low scoring applicants should be admitted to one of America's premier universities with the expectation that somehow these students will learn material that they missed in K-12.</p>

<p>Needless to say, there is no hard weighting system at Berkeley for any of the fuzzy factors mentioned above. The result is an admissions system that is impossible to audit and that offers a cover for university administrators who don't want the media hounding them over declining minority enrollment. </p>

<p>The university is saying it is tilting the balance in favor of disadvantaged students as opposed to merely engaging in racial discrimination. Whatever the truth of that assertion, any good that comes from giving disadvantaged kids a leg up is undone if the tilting goes too far. It goes too far when kids who struggled with eighth-grade math have to compete with kids who aced advanced-placement calculus. </p>

<p>Another disappointment is the many "outreach" programs that were funded post-1996 to create more diversity at the university. As I see it, hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on encouraging poor, often minority, high school students to apply to UC even if they have very low SAT scores. But the outreach programs have had perverse consequences. The victims are the kids who should have gone to one of California's outstanding community colleges, where they might have had the possibility of success and a chance to grow intellectually. </p>

<p>California's public higher education is the best in the world. UC should ensure that its policies are consistent with its well-deserved reputation. The university's admission process should be legal and fair, and the criteria for admission should be transparent to the public. Students should understand that the path into UC is pretty straightforward: Work hard, take demanding courses and demonstrate academic success. </p>

<p>(end quote)</p>

<p>see: <a href="http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=12702%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=12702&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
No one said it's a giant conspiracy - however the discrimination against high achieving Asian students is become increasingly obvious to many - however that same discrimination is occurring against high achieving caucasian students, especially middle class students - it's just with Asians because of their (generally) better stats -it's often a bit more obvious</p>

<p>The URM "diversity" programs exact an increasingly steep toll on students competing on the merits- and that cost is generally at the expense of asian and caucasion applicants. Items such as "Holistic" admissions criteria, "the X factor", and other fuzzy notions - along with selective super-heavy emphasis on essays for selective URM candidates (which easily be rigged ), recommendations (which often have little meaning) and other sometimes "fuzzy" criteria - allow the universities and colleges to engage in their (often little more than) disguised racial quota systems -keeping one step ahead of the courts. Most importantly no precise audit trail is being left as to exactly what occurs when the final selections are made by the AD COMs

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not talking about Asians vs. URMs; I'm talking about Asians vs. other non-URMs. I'm not even arguing with you about what you're saying about URMs making it harder for qualified non-URMs to get in. You seem to have conceded somewhat that this isn't some anti-Asian conspiracy ("that same discrimination is occurring against high achieving caucasian students"), but you keep persisting on baseless assertions like "it's just with Asians because of their (generally) better stats -it's often a bit more obvious." How many whites with a 1400+ got rejected from Cal in your article? I'm not sure what it proves.</p>

<p>I think it would be great if everyone ignored CitationX's hijacking and focused on the OP's thread. CX is clearly a recent escapee from one kind of institution or another.</p>

<p>Columbia's reputation is probably one tier below that of the schools you mention, although I knew many students who turned down one or two schools in that set in favor of columbia. That said, they still get over 10 applications for every spot they have. At those percentages, what matters more than achievement is demonstrated potential. The difference is subtle, and ordinarily the two go hand-in-hand. Someone whose app centers around test scores and grades may have achievement, but they may also be a grind. On the other hand, someone who has pursued one or two passions to the exclusion, a little bit, of their studies, or shown passion and talent in areas but maybe not quite as much discipline to get A after A after A, may be a more promising candidate as you think about their future opportunities and how they're likely to mature.</p>

<p>Think of a college like columbia as selecting its attendees like an investment portfolio. Sure, it's nice to have the solid performers day after day who'll put in their time and give you market-average returns. No shame in that. But if you want a portfolio where you're guaranteed a few duds, but one out of ten will give spectacular and astonishing returns, you'll likely have better results overall. Columbia, speaking broadly, wants to nurture students who are likely to do extraordinary things. They want the inventors, Nobel winners, entrepreneurs, leaders of the next generation. Part of that is picking those who are clearly smart and hardworking (i.e. test scores and grades), but the difference between a good applicant and a great applicant is the intangibles.</p>

<p>
[quote]
At those percentages, what matters more than achievement is demonstrated potential. The difference is subtle, and ordinarily the two go hand-in-hand. Someone whose app centers around test scores and grades may have achievement, but they may also be a grind.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well said in general. Just wanted to add to this and note that many people who have great grades/scores coming in really aren't all that smart and "peak" in high school. For example, someone who gets 800s on Math SAT and SAT2 may easily be a grind/grunt who ends up doing crappy in advanced math and science courses in college due to a lack of analytical skills.</p>

<p>The question was asked - and the question was answered</p>