Does having no EC's ruin my chances?

Applying to College
41

<p>OP - I am bowled over by your proclamation that poor people are just lazy - and based on your experience with your parents? (!). You have the perspective of a child/person who has not had many experiences outside of home and school. I strongly encourage you to get out and do some community service or participate in some broadening activities so that you can learn more about the world you live in and not sound so immature. </p>

<p>I do understand some of your bitterness, though. I believe the pendulum has swung too far in favor of non-academic qualities in admissions. I have seen outstanding students rejected in favor of kids who can swim or throw a football. Personally, I hope my future doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountant, investment banker, is better at learning and ethics than sports and time management. Only in the US are kids chosen for college based on extra -curricular activities over academic potential. As someone said earlier, we are forcing students to create a passion or demonstrate a passion at a time when they have their hands full just learning about themselves. How many students continue on with these "passions" in college? I really wonder how much we burn kids out in high school.</p>

42

<p>"As someone said earlier, we are forcing students to create a passion or demonstrate a passion at a time when they have their hands full just learning about themselves. How many students continue on with these "passions" in college? I really wonder how much we burn kids out in high school"</p>

<p>I think that only the very top colleges are looking for students who have a passion for something (in addition to having a passion for learning, which is something top colleges expect).</p>

<p>Other colleges simply hope that students also have done something beside going to class and getting decent grades. Heck, most colleges either barely use ECs as part of admissions decisions or don't use them at all as part of admissions decisions. Where ECs may count is for merit aid. There is some nice merit aid at various colleges for students who've shown leadership, a strong interest in community service, or demonstrated interest that goes beyond the classroom in things like art, music, business or journalism.</p>

<p>I think that at residential colleges, admissions officers hope that students will be doing something on campus other than studying. This doesn't mean that they expect the student to be intensely passionate about ECs, just willing to do more on campus than go to class. Given a choice between a joiner and a misanthrope, most colleges would prefer to select the joiner.</p>

43

<p>Northstarmom - When I was in high school I spent summers working and hanging out at the beach with my friends. I have a doctoral degree and am reasonably successful in life. I had some activities in school but didn't develop any real passions until I was exposed to bigger ideas and new experiences in college. I think holding the bar so high that one has to create a newspaper, participate heavily in science or history fairs, etc.to demonstrate admissions worthiness just speaks to how ridiculous this has all become. Plesae don't take this the wrong way - I understand that is what many schools expect now but I think it is so sad. Many students who would have blossomed in the HYP type of environment will never have the chance to do so as they simply weren't mature enough in high school or couldn't get past their "high school persona" to cure cancer!</p>

44

<p>Rileydog,
Your having spent high school summers working, frankly, is doing a heckuva lot more than many students are doing who have a laundry list of shallow ECs that are only resume dressing. </p>

<p>I think that you misinterpreted my words. I am not saying that everyone needs to create a newspaper, etc. to demonstrate a love of learning. Indeed, most colleges don't care at all if you have any ECs. Most colleges admit the majority of their applicants and do that based on stats and (for public universities) whether one lives in state. </p>

<p>WHen it comes to places like HPYS, however, it always has been true that one has to do more than just do well in class and on tests in order to gain admittance. THat doesn't mean that one has to do school ECs. One does, however, have to be doing something other than studying.</p>

<p>This could be working a job (as I did summers and during the school year before going to Harvard and eventually getting my doctorate from another university). It could be participating deeply in church activities, community service, music, sports, doing research on one's own, writing short stories, etc. It could even be being passionate enough about learning that one manages to get excellent grades despite having major home responsibilities such as having lots of responsibilities on a family farm or other business or providing care for siblings while parents are working afternoons and evenings. </p>

<p>Places like HPYS have literally hundreds of student-led activities that exist because the students that those schools select not only are smart and enjoy learning, they also enjoy other types of things that contribute to their campus and society. There's nothing new about this. Even when I got into Harvard, the students who were accepted had done far more than getting good grades and scores.</p>

<p>Also, the way that many people develop their passions usually is by trying a variety of things until something clicks. Someone who doesn't do anything except go to class and study isn't likely to find any extracurricular passion (with EC being defined very broadly). It's not as if interests fall out of the sky.</p>

<p>"Many students who would have blossomed in the HYP type of environment will never have the chance to do so as they simply weren't mature enough in high school or couldn't get past their "high school persona" to cure cancer!"</p>

<p>While the "cure cancer" part is an exaggeration, there certainly are many more students who could handle a HYP environment than there are spaces for such students. Consequently, the students who get in are the ones who have managed to have good grades, scores while also doing something else with their lives.</p>

<p>Fortunately, the U.S. has thousands of colleges, and the students with excellent grades and scores, but minimal ECs, have thousands of colleges that would happily accept them.</p>

<p>As for the idea that smart, high stat students who lack ECs would be happy in a place like Harvard, frankly, I doubt it. I can't think of any student whom I knew there who spent their time just studying. I think that students who only study would probably be very unhappy at place like Harvard because the clubs, service organizations, etc. are a very important part of life there, and students who just holed up in class and in their rooms studying would feel lonely and isolated.</p>

45

<p>u should be okay for GOOD private universities, it is just that in GREAT private universities (HYP) no offense but w/out ECs you dont stand a chance. btw I personally think that it is really good that u love learning so much, there aren't that many ppl out there like you. That is such a good quality; don't listen to anyone who tells you that you are a loser and have no life. Trust me, if you are doing what u love to do (learning) then u are just fine. Sadly, it is just the top, top, top universities these days who seem to second the learning and want the extras these days. Anyways, congrats on such a high GPA and good scores on AP tests. At least you are being honest, and that is what really counts</p>

46

<p>Northstarmom - I am trying to get at the issue of maturity and the limitations that a high school identity can have on a student. Many students are reluctant to join activities because they don't feel part of that crowd, lack confidence, are in a small town high school, or are just shy, etc. Naturally, the better schools want the mature students but we all know people from high school who totally changed in college. The selectivity has become so severe that teens and young adults are pressured to have interpersonal skills, passions and goals, that many adults do not have. I wonder if the OP isn't feeling sideilned at his school - some crowds do not make it easy for everyone to be a joiner. At college, students have an opportunity to reinvent themselves and try things they felt reluctant to try (socially) in high school. An environment like Harvard, where there are many opportunities and a largely involved class, could be the ticket for a kid who hasn't been able to bloom.</p>

47

<p>"An environment like Harvard, where there are many opportunities and a largely involved class, could be the ticket for a kid who hasn't been able to bloom."</p>

<p>Anything is possible. However, why should Harvard accept the late social bloomer when there are an overabundance of applicants who have leadership, ECs, plus excellent stats?</p>

<p>Harvard, Stanford, Yale, etc. have no reason to accept the kid who is shy, lacks confidence, etc. when there are plenty of other applicants -- including from small towns -- who have had the guts to either join and lead school activities or have pursued interests outside of school including by creating activities or connecting with adult organizations.</p>

<p>There are probably hundreds of colleges that would be good fits for the kind of students whom you describe. Those mentioned in "Colleges that Change Lives" are just a few of the colleges that would welcome late bloomers.</p>

<p>I actually don't think that a place like Harvard would be a good fit for the kind of late bloomer that you describe. The intensity, guts and passion and EC experiences of most Harvard students would probably intimidate the kind of student whom you describe. Such a person would find it lots easier to get involved on a campus that's nurturing and has faculty advisors, not on a campus that allow students to go full blast at ECs without any faculty members holding their hands through the process.</p>

<p>Most Harvard students also have had some kind of leadership position in a major organization in school or elsewhere. Consequently, most students there have years beforehand gone through beginnner's awkwardness and made the kind of mistakes that people make when they first start participating in activities. Consequently, a student who has never participated in any ECs before is going to stick out in an uncomfortable way for being awkward and ignorant about some things that others have long been familiar with.</p>

<p>The students who reinvent themselves by trying new activities in college after being involved in other types of ECs in high school are far ahead of the students who have to try to learn the basics about participating in ECs in college.</p>

48

<p>As you probably know by now, the ivies have so many applicants with great scores and academic records that prospectives really need to give admissions ANOTHER reason to admit them... good grades/scores don't cut it. </p>

<p>You need great ECs if you want great* chances for 20% schools and good chance for 10% schools. </p>

<p>*Schools that accept 20% DO accept kids with superb academic performance and few EC offerings.</p>

49

<p>*Superb academic performance = 2400/800/800/800 4.00 uw, all AP's offered and self-study for some, of course all 5s.</p>

<p>And even then I think that a few ECs are necessary, if only to pad the application.</p>

50

<p>
[quote]
Personally, I do not have time to volunteer everywhere. I've been sick most of my junior year. I'll be working at a local supermarket once I get well. But, really, I just don't want to do community service and leadership activities, anyway.</p>

<p>I'm nonreligious, nonethnic, and nonchalant. I don't care about poor people--all they have to do is try like I do, I'm not interested in captaining a soccer team or flaunting my multifarious talents to everyone possible, and I simply don't find it all that rewarding to get talked to by old people.</p>

<p>I like poker, I like playing video games, I like programming, I like running. But I would give up all of them without much of a fight. To some extent, I already have. Who cares?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm a lot like you, except I'm not so cynical about community service. I know what it's like not to care about anything enough to hate giving it up, but enjoy it while you're doing it. (I hope that made sense.) I've recently been trying new things though (aerobics) and I found out I liked it a lot. Then I had to stop going because I don't have the time, but I don't really care all that much.</p>

<p>Community service need not be only about poor people, how about the mentally challenged or physically challenged? Or kids? Or animals? Maybe you should just try it, you can always leave if you don't like it. When I tried aerobics, I was sure I'd hate it, but I ended up loving it, and it even improved my social skills. You may not be passionate about it, but at least you'll enjoy the time you spend doing the activity. You might, anyway. It's worth a try, IMO.</p>

<p>(I personally have almost no community service or work experience, in India, it's not common, it's not only not common, if you say "hey, I want to work!", people will think you're very poor and well, it's kind of taboo. My community service consists of helping out with the computer system at a blood bank. But I would like to do more in America. And hey, if you love learning, why don't you try teaching others?)</p>

<p>If I were an admissions officer, I'd appreciate your honesty, but probably only because I identify so closely with you. I value individuality very much, and I come from a country where individuality is not given much value (any Indians who wish to disagree can do so, this is my opinion) - so yeah. But as numerous others have pointed out, the colleges you're looking at have tons of applicants with your qualifications AND ECs, so you will be at a disadvantage.</p>

<p>This is just my two cents.</p>

51

<p>
[quote]
If he really cared about learning, I'd think he'd have some kind of activities outside of the classroom that focused on learning whatever it is that interests him.</p>

<p>Participating deeply in science fair, history fair, research over the summer with a local professor, Model UN (for those interested in learning about international relations), Mu Alpha Theta (for people who love learning about math), being in a book club, creating a newspaper -- all are activities that students who are passionate about learning participate in. If such activities don't exist, then they start such activities or go to adult organizations connected with subjects that interest them.

[/quote]
Personally I think this reply is spot on ... as an Alumni interviewer I always ask "what do you do with your spare time?". To the OP how will you answer this question? Saying I play video games and I am reading many of the classic great books my favorites so far are X, Y, and Z would be a fine answer. If learning is your focus your love of learning shoudl JUMP out on your application and during your interview ... and to get into a top tier school I would expect your ECs to reflect your love of learning.</p>

52

<p>I think that what the OP fails to realize is that the colleges are trying to create communities where learning takes place in all of the environments--a person who does not engage with others is not an attractive candidate because he does not bring anything to the college community. University communities are very interactive places and learning takes place not just in individual study carrels but at dining tables, a capella practices and 4 a.m. bull sessions.</p>

<p>Perhaps the OP could create an EC that he might enjoy. for example, a Great Books discussion club. Or join a book club at a local library. Not all ECs have to be high school-based. Or pass on his love of learning by working with and mentoring another child--maybe even a gifted child who does not fit in to his or her academic environment would benefit greatly from having an older friend who is somewhat similar.</p>

53

<p>Maybe the reason I am so annoyed by people like citygirlsmom is that they always have a tendency to compensate. I don't see anywhere in his posts where he said that all he does is read. None of us know anything about this kid, and yet you seem to have already turned him into some sort of stereotype of a bookworm with no social skills. </p>

<p>You know what my passions in life are? Math, science, and video games, with the overwhelming focus on the first two. I don't do community service, or EC's that have nothing to do with my passions. Does this mean I don't try new things? No. Does this mean I have no social life? Of course not. You are awfully presumptuous. Empty life... You have no idea how insulting you are. </p>

<p>Here's another fact about me. I graduated at the bottom third of my class in high school, and it took me five years to do it. I didn't have any EC's, either. Am I saying I haven't changed since then? No. Of course I have. But I think a lot of you people are in need of a reality check. Life is a twisted path for all of us, and telling somebody that they will lead an empty life because their main focus is in academia is downright insulting. </p>

<p>I am an adult too, and I have learned from experience that people are different, and not everybody enjoys the same things. Maybe you were never much into Mathematics, but it means the whole world to me. You think I go around telling people that they will lead empty lives because they don't have the same interests that I do? Or that because I am good at math, that means I have no time to spend doing other things? Or that all math involves is sitting around by youself and reading a book? Nuts!</p>

<p>Another ridiculous point is some of the suggestions about EC's involving his focuses. Not everybody has the ability to do something like a summer internship. I know I could NEVER have done such a thing, good grades or not! I grew up in poverty in a small Vermont town, and even if I had gotten an internship, I would have had no way to get there unless somebody decided to pay for room and board somewhere else. Not everybody lives in a city or near a college. None of you know anything about this kid. </p>

<p>Incredible.</p>

54

<p>I don't think many admin people would see the OP as refreshing and honest...I would guess they would see it more as cold, and a copout for not doing anything beyond the classroom.</p>

<p>It is great the OP has such wonderful stats, but you have other students with similar stats who ALSO did other stuff</p>

<p>A top college wants students who can handle both.</p>

<p>To me, the OP comes across as disliking anyone who isn't young and fresh</p>

<p>Imagine him telling an admin officer, well, I didn't do ANY Community service because I don't like poor or old people (and the admin person has a mom who is helped by a HS student at a community center)</p>

<p>Honesty isn't always the answer for not bothering to do anything, and frankly it comes across, in this case, as an excuse for being lazy</p>

<p>The student may not be classroom lazy, but as for looking at much beyond the classroo, the student is very lazy</p>

<p>Sure, he may get into a IT school</p>

<p>As for the way american colleges admit students, would you want to be in a country that basis entrance to schools on ONE test? or a few finals?</p>

<p>I don't like fakeness either, but this OP is using the excuse that he disl;ike the poor and the old to do nothing else besides study</p>

<p>As Northstarmom says, if there was a passion for learning, then the OP would have really done something outside the classroom to foster that love that would take away from the "genuiness" the OP claims</p>

<p>And if a person is a late bloomer, you only bloom by DOING, stretching oneself, stepping out of the box, trying something new</p>

<p>They may not always succeed, but the DOING and TRYING is what helps a late bloomer, not just waiting until the right time</p>

55

<p>as for INSULTING< gee the OP was so generous in his attittude toward the poor...gosh, sorry for insulting his sensibilities- the OP himself says he cares about nothing, really</p>

<p>and gfred, are you saying that this obviously smart kid who has high ambitions should follow your path</p>

<p>he asked about college admittance to some very selective schools with little to no ECs, and then he talked with disdain about the poor, and his WHO CARES attitude about things, his interest only in poker and video games, and I said what I said</p>

<p>Should I have said, ah, how cute, you care about nothing but books, you can't be bothered doing anything else, and yet you want to go to top notch schools</p>

<p>Sure, you will get in, no problem, and sparkle and shine with the lovely attitude you have towards others and your love of learning will of course shine because you have done so much with it outside the classroom...if we have two academically similar students and have to pick they will pick the kid who did that one extra class over the kid who volunteered to help kids with science homework, or who was part of the math club at school and won some competitions, because those kids who are OF the world have so much less to offer than the kid who just studied and played poker and is cynical</p>

<p>gosh,</p>

56

<p>Does anyone not realize that the OP hasn't responded back for a while as in he/she prolly don't care about teh constent bickering on here? </p>

<p>just a thought</p>

<p>anyways. I'm kinda understand the OP's mentality. I used to be in tons of clubs and sports but now , my senior year) i'm only in about 3-4 clubs where I really have a interest in and have leadership positions. </p>

<p>ALso, the Op did mention that he's about middle-lower class and he/she works at the supermarket. That could be a circumstance that college admission will understand. Work is considered way nmore important than EC, espcially if it's much needed money for him/her or his/her family.</p>

57

<p>Citygirlsmom, for someone who claims to be so old and wise, you don't seem to know very much. You're saying that peopel with no ECs will be unsuccesful. Look at our famous scientists, Newton and Einstein. THey were social outcasts and they were quite successful. You criticize our OP but you aren't giving any good advice. You are a perfect examplk of a college-whore. Our OP said that s/he had interest in programming. Nobody suggested that he go find out how to world works througha programming internship. Personally, I am a mirror to our OP. I don't want to volunteer to help out those lazy people that have no incentive to do any work and live of other's tax money. owever, our OP can consider tutoring at a elementary school in which nobody is as selfish as the rest of society is. Citygirlsmom, you shoudl read over your post and see how obstinate and unhelpful you've really been.</p>

58

<p>I just want to say that the OP said he/she wants to go to MIT? I am almost dead sure that you could win an IMO gold medal and still get rejected from MIT if he/she wants to be that selfish. Character does matter. Just look at the motto of the AAAS, which if you are serious about mathematics and science you will likely end up joining:</p>

<p>Advancing Science. Serving Society.</p>

59

<p>Newton and Einstein were from different eras, and yeah, they at least had passions that they took into the world, unlike the OP...</p>

<p>the OP has basically said he has no interest in doing much of anything BESIDES poker, video games and school work...</p>

<p>The idea that people that need help are only lazy is so narrow minded, closed, and shallow to be unbelievable</p>

<p>A person who really LEARNS while they are studying would know that there are many circumstances that bring people to the position of needing to ask for help</p>

<p>I find the "justifications" and "excuses" for the unwillingness to step up and be part of the world as just that excuses. The, well I want to be genuine is garbage. </p>

<p>And yes people have suggested other things the OP could do, but the WHO CARES attitude, well, how does a person respond to that</p>

<p>I stand by what I said, that unless you move in the world, and Einstien and Newton BOTH did, you will not have a fulfilling life...if video games and poker are all you got besides studying, sorry, I find that sad</p>

<p>As for the other excuses, late bloomers, not wanting to be a joiner, there are many things a person can do to become a complete and useful member of society beside working with the poor and the old. I do find it ironic that the OP dislikes the poor calling them lazy, when the OPs only interests are school and he claims that is easy...taking lots of classes does not make a person unlazy, it is actually an easy way of avoiding being part of the world</p>

<p>Anyway, be mad at me, it matters not, call me names, it matters not, just having met kids like the OP, I have found them to be close minded while claiming to be learned, I find them bigoted while claiming to be smart, I find them intellectualy lazy while they fill their time with books, but hey, I am just an adult with some life experience who doesn't find the OP refreshing in his calinus and his claim of wanting to be genuine to himself comes across as cold and calculating, not a charming quality imo. </p>

<p>A TRUE lover of learning doesn't just count on the classroom to learn</p>

<p>That being said, another excuse the OP used to not bother doing much else was that he didn't like old or poor or fake leadership positions...I have to say, if all you do is study, you too can have a GPA of 4.whatever, but you see, many kids have a 4.whatever and do things, gosh what a concept</p>

<p>So here are some options for those that have such disdain for the downtrodden and the eldery:</p>

<p>Volunteer in a library- if you love learning so much, help others learn</p>

<p>Have a book drive for children- so they can learn as well</p>

<p>Help veterans- unless you feel the don't warrant any help</p>

<p>Clean a park or a beach- unless you also hate nature</p>

<p>Find a company and intern- unless you don't think that is true to who you are</p>

<p>Work with animals- unless you also think a homeless dog isn't deserving either
Help at the zoo
Habitat for Humanity
Work with handicapped kids
Volunteer at a museum
OH wait how about a TECH MUSEUM, or a SCIENCE MUSEUM, wow what a concept</p>

<p>I surrender to the superior minds here to who think just being book smart is enough these days and who think that helping out somehow in this world is a waste of your time</p>

<p>Heaven forbid you get burnt out of your house and someone from the red cross assists you, the fools</p>

<p>Or that person who took CPR in order to help others, hope they aren't as shallow and cold and mean spirited as the OP is if the OPs dad has a heart attach, or his GF gets hit by a car</p>

<p>IF some of you ever need any kind of help, I am sure you will gladly take it, and I am not talking about being poor or old, I am talking about events out of your control....but guess you would never step up to help others</p>

<p>go ahead and live life in an academic bubble, whatever, I just hope that you mature a bit</p>

60

<p>No. Einstein took a great interest in philosophy and politics and aggressively used public voice to promote pacifism.</p>

<p>There is no use in comparing yourself to these men, they lived at a time when admission to the university was a completely different system.</p>

<p>IMO the baseline for admission to HYPSM is to be able to do something, and do it damn well, better than most others. If programming is your thing, do USACO and win.</p>