<p>Thinking that a degree from one of the most prestigious universities is a ticket to success in the workplace is mistaken for most people/fields. That doesn't mean that it can't still be worth some extra dollars for some, even a lot of, people to attend a top university. (Changing the adjective from "prestgious" to "top" was intentional.) Most of us are willing to pay a little more for something we really like even when something less expensive would get the job done. If we have the money. </p>
<p>We tend to talk like college is only an investment into where we (our children) will be 20 years down the road. But there are differences for the four years, eg. class size, being around similar students, non-academic opportunities. Some people care a lot and will pay a lot for these characteristics. Others don't and won't. And more than would care to admit are willing to pay something to say I (or my child) went to _________.</p>
<p>I admit I am something of a sucker for some of the prestigious colleges and universities. I rationalize it by saying if my D goes to one of them she will be intellectually engaged throughout her college years. She would have to work harder to have the same level of engagement at most colleges. And even with effort, the engagement might be spotty.
I do believe the academics would be better (more challenging) at a top univeristy, but that doesn't mean that I think the academics at middle-of-the-road schools would be deficient.</p>
<p>The original question was "does it really matter where you go undergrad?"
For career success-- no, except in a couple fields.
For future happiness-- depends on what you make of the experience. This is really the same answer as career success. Wherever you go, take advantage of the opportunities to develop a lifelong appreciation of the world around you. (Do beter schools offer ore such opportunities?)
For near-term enjoyment/satisfaction-- definitely yes, but not necessarily tied to prestige or ranking. It is about fit. And the imprtance of fit, generally or specific factors, varies greatly from person to person.</p>
Here's what you and everyone else who is making the same argument is missing. Students who go to a top school have ALREADY proven that they can work their butt off just by getting into a top school!!! Think about it. You beat John Doe on every test you took in high school, scored 250 points higher on the SAT, attained more extracurricular honors, were more engaged in your community, was more knowledgeable about world events, forged great study habits and time management skills, etc. You attend Harvard and John Doe attends his state flagship school.</p>
<p>Now what you're all saying is that John Doe can be just as successful as me if he works his butt off in college. I agree with this assessment but what's the chance of that actually happening? If he didn't work hard and develop important study skills in high school, why would he START TRYING in college? If I worked hard and developed important study skills in high school, then why would I STOP TRYING in college?</p>
<p>The kids at Ivies and the top schools have already shown they have the intelligence and skills to succeed in the professional world, or at least are commiitted to developing them. And that honestly is half the battle right there. Most state flagship students on the other hand...they've got to now start doing in college what the successful kids in the Ivies have ALREADY been doing for all their lives.</p>
<p>EAD couldn't have said it any better. I want r2 to take note of this. Who told you that kids at ivies lack character and ethics? </p>
<p>Oreo45 - i agree with your statement that if you have to take loans, then the university is definitely not worth it. However, most of the time it's the case that students only have to take loans to finance their education for 1/1.5 years of college. If you have to take a 50K loan to go to Harvard vs studying at ASU for free, the 50K for Harvard is definitely a good investment.</p>
<p>MightyNick, I think arrogance is assuming those who aren't proponents of the Ivy League couldn't get accepted by them. I was accepted at one ivy league and rejected at another - I didn't go to either, because I realized I would be happier somewhere else, somewhere where I earned a full scholarship for the hard work that you speak of as if it only characterized students of top tier schools.</p>
<p>I'm in no way insecure about where I go to school. I love it there, am proud to be one of its students, and don't worry about becoming a failure for one second. What I am is offended by the people who say :</p>
<p>
[quote]
Just don't try to ridicule the accomplishments of those that have by saying "so what if you go to a top school, it doesn't mean you'll be more successful than me".
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Am I supposed to bow down before ivy league students and reassure them that at a job interview we both show up to, they will surely get the spot? </p>
<p>Ivy league students worked hard at high school, and now have things easier (please don't jump on me for using your very own words) for them at their college, where "astounding" opportunities are placed right in front of them. I worked hard in high school, and am continuing to work even harder at college to get as many opportunities as I can. If you think that saying going to a top school doesn't guarantee you a more successful job than other university students is "ridiculing" their accomplishments, then you have been spitting in TUOwls' and my faces in every single one of your posts, MightyNick.</p>
<p>And you know I love when people start with the insults, too; it's the whole reason I felt the need to give my two cents in the first place.</p>
<p>EDIT: To MightyNick and EAD, who "couldn't have said it any better," you are again assuming that people going to a state school didn't work hard enough to get into an ivy to "prove" your points. And I'm guessing this is based on the assumption that nobody in their right minds would turn down an ivy league school (because I haven't seen that plenty of times during my high school years). Your circular reasoning is really unbelievable.</p>
<p>I love how you guys keep mis-interpreting what I'm saying.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Am I supposed to bow down before ivy league students and reassure them that at a job interview we both show up to, they will surely get the spot?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, you're supposed to kiss their feet and proclaim your love for them. Duh!! When did I ever imply that? I have NEVER said that going to an ivy or any other prestigious school is the only road to success. Should I repeat myself? However, saying that where you go to school doesn't matter at all is ignorance. </p>
<p>Let's compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges, which was the case with the smart, hardworking state school student vs the athlete with poor social skills at an ivy league school. A hardworking and smart student at an ivy league school will have a much easier time getting that high paying job than the hardworking and smart kid at a state school. Why don't you agree with this statement? It's an obvious fact!! If ivy league schools didn't provide such abundant resources, networking and educational opportunities, why would anyone bother paying so much tuition for these schools? Financial problems aside, why would any smart kid opt not go to the best school he/she could get into? </p>
<p>I am not insulting anyone that goes to a non-ivy league school (heck, I don't go to an ivy either) or even a second/third tier school. Some people are just not lucky in the admissions process, some have financial problems, some want to stay as close to home as possible, etc etc...there are many reasons. Smart kids like you that got into ivies but chose not to attend because it wasn't worth it, will probably do well in whatever college they go to and still be successful. But why does that give YOU the right to tell others not go to an ivy league school or tell them that where you go for undergrad does not matter? What's so insulting about your posts is that you're saying virtually every smart kid that goes to a top school and spends hundreds and thousands of dollars on tuition is essentially wasting his/her money.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If ivy league schools didn't provide such abundant resources, networking and educational opportunities, why would anyone bother paying so much tuition for these schools? Financial problems aside, why would any smart kid opt not go to the best school he/she could get into?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Because the best school for everyone isn't an ivy league (yes, even without considering financial aid). The best school for me is one in a vibrant city filled with (lots of) fun-loving people, lots of organizations and sports, school pride, research opportunities, and a set of good professors who will help you in your chosen major. I have that in my school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A hardworking and smart student at an ivy league school will have a much easier time getting that high paying job than the hardworking and smart kid at a state school. Why don't you agree with this statement? It's an obvious fact!!
.....
But why does that give YOU the right to tell others not go to an ivy league school or tell them that where you go for undergrad does not matter?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Did I not just agree in my last post that ivy leagues students get opportunities more easily than other college students? That's not what we're arguing about. We're arguing over whether or not your undergrad school matters in employment. Just because it's easier coming out of an ivy league school doesn't mean smart state schoolers can't work very hard and reach a level of recognition that those in ivy league schools have bestowed on them. If you're willing to work hard, then it does not matter where you go to undergrad. Apparently, according to you guys, if working hard beyond high school is not your thing then the ivy league is the way to go.</p>
<p>And I never said for students not to go to an Ivy League school (I've been trying to stress that since my second post, not matter = indifferent = go wherever the hell you want).If they truly like an Ivy better than any other school they should go for it. But choosing an Ivy over some other school just because they want a better career path is silly; as long as you work hard you should be able to reach your goals at a state school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But choosing an Ivy or some other school just because they want a better career path is silly; as long as you work hard you should be able to reach your goals at a state school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It's not silly. It's a smart decision, if you can get into an ivy league school. The name recognition of that degree will go everywhere with you. Everyone knows that the ivy league is incredibly difficult to get into, and if you went to one people will automatically assume that you are a hardworking and intelligent person. Of course hard-work is required if you want to succeed anywhere, but that ivy league degree does help you out a lot. I don't see why you're downplaying the importance of one.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Everyone knows that the ivy league is incredibly difficult to get into, and if you went to one people will automatically assume that you are a hardworking and intelligent person.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hell, why didn't you tell me all this earlier! If I had known that these employers were going to be SO impressed by me getting into an ivy league school I wouldn't have bothered wasting four years in college! I'd be right at Microsoft's door with my resume: Accepted into the Ivy League!!!</p>
<p>I hope even you realize how screwed up this is, even if it is true. We all know about legacies and athlete recruits at any school. If supposedly equal opportunity employers hire applicants based on two or three words written under the education section of their resumes, why should they even bother not hiring on the basis of race, gender, or religion? You can tell just as much about a person from these things as you can from the name of their school.</p>
<p>Maybe you should stop projecting. Just because you immediately see an ivy league graduate as a hardworking and intelligent person doesn't mean other people won't use discretion when judging a person's abilities and character.</p>
<p>And I'm downplaying the "importance" of an ivy league degree because I don't want to graduate into a world of people sharing your mentality that my education, skills, and experiences are automatically second-rate because they weren't acquired at one of seven brand name schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
TUOwls don't be bitter that you didn't get into a top school. Just don't try to ridicule the accomplishments of those that have by saying "so what if you go to a top school, it doesn't mean you'll be more successful than me". That is ARROGANCE.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I wouldn't say I'm close to bitter. Sure, there were schools I would've liked to have been able to attend (none of which are Ivies, one of which is your current school), but so what? Am I proud of where I attend? Hell yes, I am. I really wouldn't change anything I did, and I'm certainly not jealous of anyone else. Oh, and my biggest problem isn't people who attend top schools. If that's where you fit in best in terms of academics, social life, location, etc., then great, you should attend, but if you're attending a school (Ivy or not) because you're guaranteed to get a great job, the name of the school, to show off, etc., then you're doing it for the wrong reasons.</p>
<p>Oh my lord. I don't know how you're coming up with this. When did I say I would just hire someone based on their college? Why do you have to exaggerate everything and accuse me of making claims that I never do? Of course the persons other credentials will be given more weight, but the fact that person went to an ivy league will stand out on his/her resume. You CANNOT deny that fact. You'd be lying to me if you said that a resume from a person that graduated from ASU looks equally as impressive as a resume from a person that graduated from Princeton, provided that the guy from ASU has a 4.0 and little internship experience vs the Princeton guy that has a 3.4 and a part time summer job. </p>
<p>Again, I don't know where you come up with crap like "I got into an ivy league - Microsoft will accept me just because of that". I never said that's true. Again, other things like work experience, interview, etc are more important, but going to a brand name school opens many more doors for you.</p>
<p>There is an old story about a child who, upon seeing a butterfly attempting to free itself from its cacoon, gave it a hand by pulling open the cacoon and setting the butterfly, wings still wet and limp, on a branch.</p>
<p>As the child waited, nothing happened. The butterfly would not fly, and would not spread its wings.</p>
<p>As it turns out, a butterfly cannot spread its wings without having first struggled to pry open its cacoon -- that very struggle is what strengthens the wings and forces fluid into them providing their structure.</p>
<p>That butterfly died, unable to fly.</p>
<p>Now, what is the application to this discussion, you ask?</p>
<p>It is quite possible, depending on the state of a student's character development, that the "opporunties presented by Ivy league schools" do more harm than good. Where in that is the opportunity for the student to learn the critical life lessons that fending for oneself brings? Ferreting out one's own opportunities? Setting up one's own interviews? Perhaps opening one's own doors does something critical in forming the type of character that will later become critical to career success? Is it possible that too easy a road stunts one's development?</p>
<p>EECH! I'm sorry, I was just having a nightmare. Forget all the above... go to an Ivy, and take the handouts from the career office!</p>
<p>
[quote]
but if you're attending a school (Ivy or not) because you're guaranteed to get a great job, the name of the school, to show off, etc., then you're doing it for the wrong reasons.</p>
<p>How's that Mr. Former Nittany Lion?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I didn't transfer to UM because I wanted to show off nor did I feel that I would be guaranteed a job if I went there. I transferred because I wasn't challenged enough at PSU. I also wanted to go to a more reputable business school where I would have a better shot at internships and jobs than I would have at Smeal. There is a considerable difference between the two business schools, which I have seen for myself.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You'd be lying to me if you said that a resume from a person that graduated from ASU looks equally as impressive as a resume from a person that graduated from Princeton, provided that the guy from ASU has a 4.0 and little internship experience vs the Princeton guy that has a 3.4 and a part time summer job.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ok, well obviously what matters here is the fact that the Princeton Guy has a job and the ASU guy has an internship...NOT the fact that the Princeton guy is a Princeton guy. Don't know what that example was supposed to add to this discussion...</p>
<p>
[quote]
I also wanted to go to a more reputable business school where I would have a better shot at internships and jobs than I would have at Smeal.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Translation for state schoolers: "I also wanted to go to a school whose very name I can whisper to put a smile on my face, and where I would be given an internship instead of actually having to stand out and earn the ones at PSU."</p>
<p>Tell me - if you weren't challenged at PSU and could get into UM, why didn't your excellent credentials make the people at University Park cream their pants and beg you to take their internships?</p>
<p>The only reason there is actually an argument in this thread is that the immature CCers who have dreamed of attending an Ivy League school ever since they knew that getting into Harvard impresses people can't stand to think that non-Ivy Leaguers can get to the same spot as them without their extra special degree.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And you will be the first to send your children to Ivys when they get in! Which I'm sure they will.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not sure how to respond to this since I don't know what it means...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Tell me - if you weren't challenged at PSU and could get into UM, why didn't your excellent credentials make the people at University Park cream their pants and beg you to take their internships?</p>
<p>The only reason there is actually an argument in this thread is that the immature CCers who have dreamed of attending an Ivy League school ever since they knew that getting into Harvard impresses people can't stand to think that non-Ivy Leaguers can get to the same spot as them without their extra special degree.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I talked to my advisor there and she said she could have landed me with an excellent internship - but the problem was that I didn't have a work permit. Besides, even if I did, I still would've transferred. I had a 3.95 GPA at PSU - people have called me crazy for transferring. But I don't care - that is not the only thing I cared about. I wanted a better college environment where academics were taken seriously. UM was my dream school and I always wanted to go there because of its outstanding reputation in business/economics. I'm not saying I would have been worse off career/job wise had I stayed at PSU with that GPA, but I think UM will give me a better edge when I look for jobs/internships.</p>