Does Northwestern Waitlist/Reject Overqualified Applicants?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Northwestern University
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<p>“I think that over the past 5 years or so, there has been a paradigm shift in college admissions – for lack of a better term, let’s call it “Common App.” NU as well as most other schools are trying to figure out how to deal with this, because basically, their pre-Common App data is stale.”</p>

<p>I have been wondering about this as well. From very unscientific observations, I have come to the conclusion that the number of applications nearly all universities have received is increasing far more rapidly than the number of students. I am of the opinion the common application, the amount of information on the internet (including this websight), the necessity the job market places on completing college and the cost of a college education have all conspired to explode the number of applications sent. I believe I read somewhere that NU received 16000 apps. in 2000 and over 32000 in 2011. At the top level I feel many more students must be taking a shotgun approach, shooting out as many applications as they can and seeing what choices they have when the carnage is over. This has to make it more challenging for the university as the likelyhood an accepted student would actually attend their school would decrease. The selection becomes less about fit for both the student and the university than the way the dice fall. The student take his shot and gets his hand then the universities have to wait to determine who amongst those they offered admission will actually attend. I can’t help but think 5-10-15 years ago the students who applied were much more interested in actually attending. Now it’s bragging rights about who accepted you.</p>

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<p>UChicago should go to ED. Then we will really see how many people apply. With EA, people say to themselves, what the heck - I’ll throw my app at it and see if it sticks. No one will ever know how many of those EA apps are for giggles and how many are for real. Go ED and we’ll see what happens.</p>

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<p>It is true that there are more applicants since 2000, but there was a ‘baby boom’ in the US from the mid 80s to the mid 90s (it peaked with 1990-1991 births) which explains the increase of applications. </p>

<p>Also, since late 2007, when the US Govenment put pressure on the private colleges to start offering the US Middle income bracket families financial aid or they would start to be taxed as private businesses, a BOOM in applications from the middle income group took off. Stanford started it off by offering FREE college for four years to any admitted student whose family earned under $90K and that year Stanford saw their applications rise to over 30,000. Now, all colleges are offering amazing fin aid packages, and marketing this across the nation at the meet and greets and in mailings. </p>

<p>The old days of only the wealthy being brave enough to apply to the Ivys and elite private schools are gone. </p>

<p>Of course, this makes for an even more competitive academic environment. But it opens doors for families who would have otherwise insisted that their kids apply to the public schools. </p>

<p>And, of course, there are public schools cutting back on course offerings, increasing class sizes and tuition, and laying off professors in some states. This is causing somewhat of an exodus of top academic students from California where there are numerous highly academic public schools. California public universities have to give extra points to the families in high need or the first born to college, etc and the result is that wealthier and even middle income families have increasingly begun sending their kids away because it is sometimes cheaper for a student to attend an elite private school out of state than attend a University of California school, especially when that 4-year degree takes an average of 5-6 years to complete now. </p>

<p>The UCs have finally caught on this year of the exodus and are offering more aid to the middle income families which explains the record breaking 90,000 applications to UCLA this year. </p>

<p>And on top of all of this, the US is known for having the BEST of the BEST universities in the world and with the increase of wealth in other nations, the internet, and an increased need for more engineering students, etc, the US is a target for many foreign students who spend 5.5 to 6 days a week in school and attend school many more days a year (220 vs 180) than the typical US student adding even more competitive numbers to the SAT averages. </p>

<p>It’s no wonder that the legacy factor is weaker now than ever in the past for many of the elite univerisities.</p>

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<p>And to add to the applications, most colleges are offering NO Application Fees for the lower income students. They are not under any financial strain to hold back on college app numbers. Also, many colleges offer this to ALL students (Case Western, for example). Again, once a student completes the Common app and the supplemental question seen often enough, “Why this college?” that student can rework that question in a few minutes tops and shoot out twenty or thirty apps for free. Last year, someone told me he sent out 28 applications!!! This year, I have heard many kids mention 14, 15 or more. Really? It used to be 3-6. Or 8-10 for the people who could afford it. Kids have no limits these days. Even the SAT will waive fees for the low income families.</p>

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<p>I was planning on applying to 8 schools, but when my counselor labeled certain schools that I thought were “possibles” as “reaches”, and schools I considered “safeties” as “likelies”, I had no choice but to apply to more schools (12 total). That’s a 50% increase in applications from just 1 student- multiply that many times over & you get the picture.</p>

<p>With the Common App system, there is just too much uncertainty - applying to more schools seems a safer bet. With tuition so high, I need to have more options to choose from, including FAs & scholarships. I guess plenty others feel the same way.</p>

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<p>In my earlier post I wasn’t calling Northwestern a “lesser” school and I put “lesser” in quotes because I don’t think it’s a good idea to think of schools this way. Yes, best fit is best, but how in the world do you know what that is? If you have high scores you’re tempted to try to get in to a school in the top 20 or so, especially if you think you’re going to graduate school and might want to be a professor. For most jobs I don’t think it matters but in academia it does - depending on how ambitious you are.</p>

<p>I actually thought my daughter would enjoy Northwestern more than most ivies but she didn’t get in! So Northwestern is definitely not “lesser” to us.</p>

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<p>Yeah, so NU historically having an ED admit rate lower than most other top schools and now getting it closer to the norm is NU “cheating” the system? lol</p>

<p>Even w/ the increase, NU’s ED admit rate is still a good bit lower than schools like Penn, Columbia, Dartmouth, etc. (for last year’s entering class, Penn filled nearly 50% w/ ED admits).</p>

<p>If anything, NU’s admin is just catching up w/ the times.</p>

<p>And I seem to recall, UoC rankings on USNWR shooting up after school officials had a meeting w/ the editors and “reworking” the nos., not to mention UoC being known to send tons of materials out to prospective students like WUSTL, so I wouldn’t exactly be throwing accusations.</p>

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<p>Uhm, no. NU’s yield rate historically has been in the low 40% range before it went to the common application.</p>

<p>Once NU adopted the common application, resulting in a big increase in applications, the yield % dropped to the low 30% range (nice try in trying to sneak that 20% figure in), but has been climbing back up to its historical norm.</p>

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<p>Phuriku is just like those Duke ■■■■■■ who try to make their school look better by repeatedly making derogatory statements about other schools, usually w/ inaccurate “facts” - except worse since Phuriku seems to have an unhealthy obsession w/ NU in particular (hmmmm).</p>

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<p>Oh, and another thing for phuriku and sniperas to chew on; not that long ago (2006), UoC’s admit rate was around 37-38% while NU’s admit rate was around 29-30%.</p>

<p>The fact that UoC’s admit rate has dropped more preciptously leads one to believe that UoC’s admin has pulled out all the tricks to drop the admit rate.</p>

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<p>What do you think Chicago’s tricks are? Because I think it’s due to the common application only.</p>

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<p>UChicago is notorious for its mass mailing at a level no other top school (besides maybe WashU) has really done before. Make no mistake, UChicago realizes that the application totals matter and it has thus aggressively pursued a strategy to increase those numbers every year. UChicago is not as well-known as its peers, so it’s understandable why it would need to market itself so aggressively to catch up.</p>

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<p>We’re on the West Coast and I can vouch for the fact that few schools rival UChicago’s junk mail barrage (our Junior S has been getting it for over a year already).</p>

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<p>“Once NU adopted the common application, resulting in a big increase in applications, the yield % dropped to the low 30% range (nice try in trying to sneak that 20% figure in), but has been climbing back up to its historical norm.”</p>

<p>I said RD. Obviously when you factor the 100% yield from ED and the 30%-ish total yield, the RD yield is going to be about 20%. And really, isn’t RD the most important figure? It shows how students choose when they have other options and aren’t forced to commit. It demonstrates that when people have a choice between Northwestern and another school, they choose another school 80% of the time. Don’t you think that’s a little bit of a cause for concern?</p>

<p>Also, I don’t know why k&s insists on bringing up figures from 5-10 years ago. Duke also used to be a top 5 school, but that’s hardly a feasible proposition nowadays. Also, the fact that NU’s yield has dipped from over 40% to low 30%s is a little concerning, don’t you think? And the only way for NU to get it back up to the high 30s is to admit tons more students ED, because they know that people aren’t going to accept their offers for RD when they have offers from NU’s peer schools like Michigan, WashU, and Notre Dame, and NU’s superiors like Duke, Penn, JHU, and Chicago.</p>

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<p>Blah,</p>

<p>I vaguely remember UChicago had a new admission head few years ago and since then, I have heard of the mass mailing and also their meeting with USN to “discuss” certain data UChicago had “underreported” (jumped 6 spots in the year after that meeting and after submitting the “correct” data). It seems like they have made it a huge campaign and mission and have been a lot more aggressive than before this new admission head was hired.</p>

<p>phuriku

Doesn’t seem like whatever math class you took for your core at UChicago has helped you that much. Let me give you a hint here: if what you said is true, NU will have to get about 350 kids from the waitlist this year!!</p>

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<p>I think both UC and NU are great schools that a lot of people are very happy to attend. It’s about fit more than anything. My D visited both and chose to apply to NU and not UC - her best friend made the opposite decision. My D also chose not to apply to Stanford … just didn’t love it. </p>

<p>Oh and we got a TON of mail from U Chicago - unsolicited. It got us to visit - but she just didn’t feel it was a fit. I’m sure their marketing increases their applications as well as the common ap effect. U Chicago DOES have challenging essays, so kids have to be a little bit serious to want to apply there. </p>

<p>phuriku - not sure what your interest is in putting down NU… but I don’t really take your comments seriously. I’ve seen too many students who were well qualified and really wanted to get in to NU - who didn’t - to think it’s so undesireable. Somehow they are filling their classes… and many of their programs have top reputations. Yes, my D did get into NU although she isn’t going - but it’s not because she’s going to one of their peers - she’s just going to an LAC instead.</p>

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<p>Sam Lee:</p>

<p>Let me explain to the intellectually disadvantaged among us.</p>

<p>After waitlist admits and before summer melt, Northwestern had 1434 RD admits accept their places in the class of 2015, after 4860 were admitted ED. That comes out to 29.5%, and let’s remember that that’s after the waitlist was used and before summer melt, so the actual figure is likely in the 27-28% range. So NU is still losing over 70% of cross-admits RD as of last year, and most likely in the range of 72-73%. It doesn’t take a math genius like myself to tell you that back when the yield was hanging around the 30% that the RD yield was 20% (which was, as you might remember, the claim).</p>

<p>kathieh: I actually think NU’s a pretty good school, and I stick up for it on other boards, esp. when compared to Duke, Penn, and others. I think NU is definitely underrated, but its annoying superiority complex isn’t helping, so I try to help out a little bit. I like to think of NU as a younger brother. I’ll stick up for him against other people, but while it’s only me and him, I like to try to tease him out of his superiority complex (which was probably caused from the initial inferiority complex he got from being the younger brother) so that he’ll be seen as more legitimate. Really, I’m trying to help more than anything.</p>

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<p>^This is fun. Let me see:

  1. You are thinking there were 100 kids off the waitlist in the year they over-enrolled?
  2. Some people have enough grasp of numbers to extrapolate. But that’s not you. Let me give you the real statistics: even in that very worst year in NU history, the RD yield was 24%, not 20%.
  3. The overall yield in that worst year was 31% and in the worst 4-yr cycle, it was more like 33%/34%. It was not “hanging around 30%”; it seems to me your purpose is to ■■■■■.
  4. Why are you going back 3 years ago. Should we go back to the years when UChicago’s yield was in the low 30s? At least, you don’t see anybody from NU going to UChicago board to do that. I guess we are just more tactful.
  5. You called yourself “math genius”. Thanks for showing us how awkward you are.</p>
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<p>By the way, as far as superiorty complext and inferiority complex, I think you are speaking for yourself and perhaps some of your fellow alums. </p>

<p>[Princeton</a> number 1 in college rankings - Boston.com](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2006/08/18/princeton_number_1_in_college_rankings/]Princeton”>http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2006/08/18/princeton_number_1_in_college_rankings/)

Sending complaints to their alma mater just so it would do something about its ranking when it’s already in the top-15? Now that’s a complex!</p>

<p>■■■■■■■■ around a peer school’s forum to say it’s inferior? That’s a major complex!!!</p>

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<p>Phuriku, your unceasing obsession with Northwestern is beyond me. No Northwestern person has ever cared as much about UChicago as you have about Northwestern…it’s really amazing.</p>

<p>You like to think of yourself as the wiser older brother but an outsider observing the situation thinks of you as the nerdy socially awkward guy (UChicago) whose girlfriend dumped him in favor of the smart and popular alpha male (Northwestern). You forever hold a grudge against him and her for that reason, which many would find “creepy” and “stalkerish.” Do you really think the alpha male cares that he’s #12 as opposed to #5 in class? Definitely not. You should realize that no matter what UChicago’s reputation is, certain types (e.g. smart popular types) just will not be as excited about it and will always choose Northwestern instead when given the chance.</p>

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<p>I wasn’t going to weigh in on this silliness but this reasoning is so ill-wrought it hurts my brain. By removing those in ED you’re removing those most interested in attending. People are not forced to apply early decision- applying is itself a choice of NU over other schools. So the only relevant number is overall yield- by the very definition of ED, those who get in that way have chosen NU over other schools. Removing those students from the pool and then pretending you’re surprised that the yield for RD is lower is a clever bit of sleight of hand, but either tremendously dishonest or tremendously foolish.</p>

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<p>I do not think a school taking student interest into account for admissions constitutes the Tufts syndrome. Indeed, it is important these days to look at interest when a student can apply to 15 schools in the flash of an eye via the common app. The problem at Tufts, as I understand it from this board, is that Tufts rejects students who interview there and express interest. It does not appear from this board that NU does that as most of the students rejected admit that they did not interview or express as much interest at NU than their other choices. Also, may schools use ED as a matter of yield protection including Ivy’s like Penn, Cornell, Dartmouth, Columbia, and Brown. Things being close among applicants, those schools want students fired up to attend there. </p>

<p>As s school barely outside the USNWR Top 10, NU wants to make sure students will be happy there and not suffer from Ivy envy (and perhaps transfer). Also, these days getting into any Top 15 school is tough, and an acceptance at Duke or UChicago does not guarantee one at NU. Now if a student accepted at Stanford or Harvard gets rejected by NU after having taken steps to demonstrate interest at NU than I would reconsider, but I have not seen that on this board. </p>

<p>Despite the fine distinctions made by USNWR, I think from the perspective of employers and graduate schools there are much fewer tiers of schools, with HYPSM being at the top, then 15 or so great schools like Duke , NU and UChicago, plus a couple of publics (which USNWR underrates) and the very top LACs, then another thirty or so top LACS and universities, and then everyone else, with the difference in the public’s mind between #70 and #170 being pretty minimal.</p>