<p>Sorry for the long rant.</p>
<p>This is a real sore point with me.</p>
<p>I’m a student but for a background I took four years of Spanish in high school and 3 years of Chinese in college so I thought it might help to have a student perspective.</p>
<p>How many of your kids who took all four year in school, how many actually can speak the language fluently?</p>
<p>I forgot most of my Spanish. I can still understand a little bit, but not much. I did very well in all my Spanish classes throughout the years but have not retained much due to lack of practice/interest.</p>
<p>How many can read it well enough to say read a magazine or novel?</p>
<p>I was not able to read a magazine or novel after 4 years of Spanish. Maybe a little bit of a book, but neither of what you mentioned.</p>
<p>How many plan on continuing with that language in college?</p>
<p>I stopped once I went to college (interest factor).</p>
<p>Would your D have preferered a different language and which one?</p>
<p>Yes, Chinese, but at the time is was not offered.</p>
<p>Why did student pick the HS language?</p>
<p>Because everyone said it was “useful” and I thought I might like it more than Japanese and French. However, I did not look into the other language backgrounds thoroughly enough so I suppose you could say I made an “uninformed” decision. </p>
<p>And for those with kids in college:</p>
<p>Is the way the language is taught in college better/worse than HS? Is it more/less effective?</p>
<p>Depends what college you go to. Mine was worse because they mixed native and non-native speakers so it was a bad learning environment. A better way to learn is to go abroad to that country and attend a school known for its language teaching programs.</p>
<p>All in all the things I’ve learned from taking language classes is that:
- It’s better to choose a language that seems interesting to the person. Also, look into how hard it is to learn that language and see if it’s manageable (for example, Chinese takes a lot of work and perhaps the time learning that language would’ve been better invested in building up other skills).
- Usefulness is a factor, but if the interest is not there it’s really hard to keep going, especially since language skills get better with practice.</p>
<p>My kids…</p>
<p>First, French started in K or first grade at our elem school up through sixth grade…one to two times per week (forget) but like art, music, gym type class. </p>
<p>Middle school here is grades 7 and 8. You can take French I or Spanish I over a two year period and complete one full year of HS Foreign Language. My kids ended up accelerating as they were bored stiff in seventh grade French. My oldest skipped French 2 when she got to HS and went into French 3 (which ended up being a two on one independent study with a teacher due to schedule issue). Did French 4 as a sophomore. Did French 5 as a junior (highest level of French offered, though our school did not give it the AP designation). She ran out of French classes for senior year due to acceleration and so did a two on one independent study for French 6 with the French teacher and a best friend who also had accelerated and finished French 5 in junior year. She got to college, still really loving French but no intent to major in it and her college (Brown) had an open curriculum. She CHOSE to take French all four years of college and first did a placement test and placed out of several levels. Meanwhile, she has worked in France two summers during her college years and this past summer during her grad years and I have to say she is fluent in French completely. She had to work in French and so on. </p>
<p>Younger D had a similar experience. But she accelerated sooner and so finished French I in seventh grade. Went into the HS in 8th grade and took French 2. In ninth, she took French 3 and in tenth, she took French 4 and in Junior year she took French 5 (highest level offered). She then chose to graduate HS a year early and did not take French in college but also was not in a BA degree in college. She was very good in French but I imagine since she is now out of college and age 20, she has lost a great deal of it. </p>
<p>Also, D1 spent one semester of college in Italy and while classes were in English, she took one semester of Italian and can speak enough Italian to get by in a foreign country. </p>
<p>I met my D over in France this summer and witnessed first hand her conversing in public extremely well in French and also all her resumes and cover letters and such are in French. I also have seen her deal in Italian with people overseas. I have seen her buy and read books in French for pleasure.</p>
<p>My daughter did a High School Credit (4 weeks to cover 1 year of high school FL) course at Concordia Language Villages last summer and loved it. They try to make the camp as immersive as possible. It seems like a good alternative to high school classes. She then continued studying her FL at a local CC, but has finished the courses they offer (they only have through 2nd year college level), so this year she’ll be working with a tutor on her own. The local PS options were pretty dismal. Studying her language this way has allowed her to remain enthusiastic about learning the language.</p>
<p>i took 3 years of french and got B’s every year.
i can’t even speak a full sentence of it, let alone read or speak fluently.
i don’t even remember the colors, months, etc. and i did WELL in this class.
so no i don’t think high schools really do a good job of it lol. at least not french at my school. and i highly doubt a 4th year would’ve done much good. i chose it because it has a reputation for being easy and i wasn’t really interested in languages to begin with, so i just picked the easiest one.
if it isn’t required in college i won’t be taking it.</p>
<p>I think a major advantage of taking a foreign language, aside from learning that language, is that it teaches people English, too, as in, how the language is structured, grammatical forms, verb tenses and voices, and so on.</p>
<p>My son started German in kindergarten at his public school magnet. He had German classes daily and the school did several German cultural activities throughout the year. I don’t think any of his teachers were native speakers but several had spent considerable amount of time in Germany. In middle school, he continued with German and two of his three teachers were German. In high school, after all of that German, he started with a book that was labelled German 2. Even though he won his class German award for the past 4 years, he still begged me to let him switch to Russian. I convinced him to stay in German by telling him that he would likely test out of the language in college and would not have to take anymore. He hates the grammar and structure, says it is too fussy. My H and I talked him into going to Germany for a 3 week exchange this past summer. The first 3 days he was completely overwhelmed. By the third week, he was carrying on conversations with his host parents who spoke little English and going to movies in German. He wants to return to Germany either for a gap year or study abroad but still hates his German classes. At least at our school, I think world languages are not taught correctly.</p>
<p>My daughter took Spanish through Level 5 and got a 5 on the AP Spanish Language exam. She then took one additional semester of Spanish in college.</p>
<p>She can’t speak Spanish or understand spoken Spanish worth a damn. But I don’t think she cares.</p>
<p>1) I’m still not fluent after four years of high school Spanish and two years of college Spanish.</p>
<p>2) I took four years of high school Spanish (I-IV). After four years I could read BBC news in Spanish and a novel in Spanish that was designed for Spanish learning students. In high school I couldn’t read Spanish “literature” because I was taught conversational vocabulary, not literary vocabulary. </p>
<p>3) I’m still taking Spanish. </p>
<p>4) I tried taking Chinese for a semester in college. I ended up dropping it, because it went too quickly.</p>
<p>5) I like Spanish because it is useful to know in the US and it isn’t French. </p>
<p>6) If anything, it’s worse in college. What was two or three years of high school language, is now compressed into 2 semesters. There is no way I, as a slower language student, could make an oral presentation (with out notes) in Chinese after just 3 weeks of class. Intro language courses basically consist of drills in class, and turning in a self corrected workbook/ lab (listening) manual before tests with maybe a few essays or oral presentations thrown in. In high school, teachers have the luxury of going slower and good ones try to explain the grammar. In college, language professors go over (not necessarily teach) a grammatical concept once before the test; vocabulary is entirely self taught. </p>
<p>Also students who take “difficult” languages (Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, etc.) and aren’t heritage speakers tend to burn out quickly. In college, intro language classes meet 3, 4, or even 5 times a week, so they are a huge time commitment. It’s also doesn’t work for true beginners to be in the same class as heritage speakers. </p>
<p>Students who start foreign languages in high school or before stand a chance of being able to take classes at a non English speaking university while studying abroad. </p>
<p>7) Ideally, “immersion” in a foreign language would happen in elementary school. Even immersion in high school or college is better than a classroom. </p>
<p>8) It’s entirely possible to not take a foreign language during college if one’s school, major, or study abroad program doesn’t require it.</p>
<p>My oldest took Latin for four years and didn’t really have an interest in Spanish or French. He is doing his foreign study next year but will be in a program that the language is predominantly English. My S2 took 4 years of Latin along side 4 years of French. He is a novice, easy books, easy sentences - about on par with where most kids are after 4 years. I’m not sure what he will do in college. I’m all for the schools/states that require an additional language. I took four years of language in high school and another 3 years of the same language in college. Did my foreign study in the language at a university (not an “english speaking” program). It’s up to S2 how far he takes his French.</p>
<p>Our kids took french from K (we are in Canada). Now taking it in HS. I definitely see some kids who picked it up very fast, and some who still struggle (HUGE variation in ability it seems). </p>
<p>I think learning it before the age of 12 is extremely valuable as we know that teh ability to acquire language is best before puberty (just as its like drinking water if one is learning at age 2, harder if same child learns at 8, harder still if they wait until 50). I think its crazy how languages start getting covered AFTER puberty for the most part. Makes no sense at all. </p>
<p>In both elementary and HS, the whole curriculum and instruction is in french, and pedagogy is a combination of acting, labs, writing, scripts, powerpoint presentations, you name it. Though in elementary it was all oral and taught more implicitly through games, acting and just conversation and in HS it was that but also with textbooks and formal grammar lessons. My D much much much preferred HS, whereas S preferred elementary. She’s more of a visual learner so that might be part of it. It may depend on one’s learning style.</p>
<p>Even if one doesn’t acquire the language to use it, one does learn about another culture and more importantly, it’s another way to shape one’s brain. Learning a second language (especially in the early years) is linked to a host of cognitive benefits. It also enhances your grasp of your native language (nothing like learning grammar in another language to ‘see’ how your own native language works), and one’s ability to start a third language is enhanced. My kids definitely learned not just french but also about french culture, language as a concept and also how to learn language. </p>
<p>Similarly, our kids learned programming, not so much to program later in life, but it gave them a different way to think. Art and music too-- tapping into another part of one’s brain. It’s all so useful even if it doesn’t produce a ‘practical skill’ at the end of it.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=bluebayou]
- I don’t know that any HS curriculum will result in “fluency”, even an AP course.</p>
<p>…</p>
<p>5) Our public HS only offers two languages, one of which Spanish.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Your first point may be a result of your fifth. Some schools treat foreign languages as adjuncts to the “real” curriculum. Others treat them as significant unto themselves, and those programs certainly can produce fluent speakers.</p>
<p>I wonder after three or four years, how many students can use what they learned in class to say, use it on a vacation? </p>
<p>Not even fluency, but enough to get through a trip. Seems to me either you did really well, or you just got through the classes. My D got a B all through Spanish for three years, but don’[t think she could ask for help on a vacation. </p>
<p>I lived in Germany for two years, went to an army school, but I think I learned more German from just being there than by D did in three years.</p>
<p>I understand the importance of learning a foriegn language isn’t just learning to speak, but I would hope that after 3-4 years, most kids would be able to navigate in Spain or France for a vacation.</p>
<p>D took 4 years of IB French, and did fine on her interactive oral. But she was quite nervous about it and did alot of prep, so I certainly wouldn’t say that she’s fluent by any means. She apparently feels the lack, because the college French class that’s grabbed her attention is the conversational course.</p>
<p>BTW, it wasn’t the goal at our HS that they be fluent by graduation. My D’s interest in the language is not so much about being able to travel or live in a given place; it’s more about her fascination with the beauty of all things French.</p>
<p>My son took three years of middle school Spanish and then three years of HS Spanish finishing with IB Spanish 5 (the highest level at his school). He also took 4 years of Latin, the most offered at this school. After HS he took a six-week summer school program in Italy where they learned Italian for several hours a day. It was not really an immersion course however because the principal subject was music. He took no language courses his freshman year and would have tested out of taking any, but language is part of his major and he is taking Russian this year. He did take an Italian immersion course this summer for four weeks and we were lucky enough to have him serve as our guide and translator for our trip to Italy.</p>
<p>I would say that he is almost fluent in Italian despite having had only 10 weeks of instruction. Immersion really helps. I don’t know how well he can speak Spanish, but he can read it adequately. I know that he can read Latin well, but he says that he can not write Latin, I’m not sure why. He has also self-studied Irish Gaelic (and has used the Rosetta stone course) and was able to speak “some” gaelic when he was in Ireland. His biggest language problem is not grammer, but vocabulary. He usually quickly understands the grammer rules of languages, but has a had time learning all of the words necessary to communicate.</p>
<p>He picked Spanish in Middle School because the teacher was so well-liked and because he thought it would be useful. While his teacher was nice and fun, she was abysmal as a teacher. His HS teachers were not much better. His freshman teacher only wanted to talk about South American politics and his junior year teacher was uninspired and taught the class in English, whereas his sophmore teacher insisted on only speaking or writing in Spanish (which my son loved). If he had to do it over again, he would learn either French or German because of his musical interests.</p>
<p>I took four years of HS Spanish and by my fourth year we were reading Don Quixote (and other Spanish literature) in Spanish. I took another year of Spanish in college and I don’t remember learning much more. I didn’t use Spanish much thereafter, but 15 or so years later my wife and I were in Mexico and I found that it came back quite quickly. Just a few weeks ago I needed to use a bit of Spanish to hire some workers who may have been “undocumented”. Between my broken Spanish and their broken English we were able to understand each other just fine.</p>
<p>Like many things, I think people learn languages in different ways. What works for one may not work for another. Personally, I think immersion is the key, even if the immersion is limited to the classroom. I think my son actually regressed in this ability to speak Spanish after his sophmore year in HS.</p>
<p>My son attended a French immersion charter school from kindergarten to 8th grade. Everything was in French, math, history, science, even gym. He is fluent in spoken French, written not so much (which apparently is typical of immersion programs). In high school he was in French 4 in freshman year and is now in French 5 as a sophomore. The school didn’t want to place him in French 4 to begin with because they said he’d run out of French classes to take. So we said fine, he can switch to Spanish for his junior and senior year. The high school was horrifed–they said he can’t do that, if he did that everyone would want to switch languages when they got to the harder levels. Huh? My H, who works in business and has occasion to meet with people from many countries, believes that the greatest value in taking a foreign language is being able to communicate in the working world. So spoken fluency in French and a nodding acquaintance with Spanish seems like a reasonable goal. But some parents of other kids who graduated from the same French immersion program feel that the goal for their kids is to be able not just to speak French but to write it and to be able to appreciate literature. Interestingly, one boy who began kindergarten with my S spoke only Flemish at home, attended the French immersion till 8th grade, spoke English with his friends and is now fluent in Flemish, French and English and is taking Spanish in high school.</p>
<p>Son took German all four years of hs and now he speaks and writes fluently. He picked it up easily, but he did have the advantage of an excellent teacher! He was able to go on to take junior level German classes during his freshman year in college, along with German majors. So yes, it is definitely possible.</p>
<p>Daughter struggled more (same teacher, less aptitude) and while she got A’s, she decided to stop after 3 years of hs language to pursue other interests. To each his (or her) own, I guess.</p>
<p>I was so bored in HS Spanish that I only took one year. That one year did help me better understand English grammar.</p>
<p>DD’s HS said foreign language studies weren’t just for the ‘high, high students’ - which I took as a warning that they wouldn’t be at all challenging. I did not encourage my kid to take any foreign language in HS.</p>
<p>As a college frosh she’s taking Japanese. It is going at a good pace, she’s not bored, likes it and studies it a lot, and is doing very well so far. So far I have no regrets about the postponement of foreign language studies. But she’s not attending a school that requires foreign language for entry.</p>
<p>I am amazed to read that because a student learn another language at school, and is not fluent after a numbers of years, will quit. </p>
<p>To be fluent in a language, one has to practice. Teachers are there to teach the basics, it is up to the student to seek out other resources. If one takes piano lessons once a week for 30 minutes, and never practice, is it surprising that after one year, he is not progressing? How many students learning a second language would take books (on that language) from the library, would rent a video in that language, would gather with others students to speak the second language during free time? Not too many, I am sure. </p>
<p>This is not a put down, I have the same problem with my S. But the point is beyond school, there is not too much effort from the student.</p>
<p>My daughter started Spanish in 8th grade and took through AP Spanish her senior year at our public hs. She worked in the school’s counselor’s office as a proctor her spring semester senior year, and was able to assist parents and students who could not speak English - she also gave school tours in Spanish to visitors. Now a freshman at a selective LAC, she is continuing her Spanish - she feels her teacher and the class is very similar to her high school class and that she was well-prepared.</p>